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From: Frank Buss on 29 Dec 2009 18:38
Rick wrote:

> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
> bit of glue logic.

You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx ISE
and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
integrated simulator.

If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:

http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm

If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
Xilinx Platform Cable.

Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and some
nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpensive,
but I don't know the development tools.

--
Frank Buss, fb(a)frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Rick on 30 Dec 2009 03:26
On Dec 29, 4:44 pm, van...(a)sfu.ca (Peter Van Epp) wrote:
> Rick <richardcort...(a)gmail.com> writes:
<snip>
>         Since I was just down a similar route (although in the end I managed
> to find a compiled file of the 16V8 and 20V8 I needed and ran it through my
> B+K prom programmer without having to compile the palasm source), you likely
> want to look at Lattice. They bought MMI and the older versions of their
> software are still available for free  on their web site and appear to
> support the various PALs probably including schematic capture (I needed palasm).
>         I think pretty much any programmer that supports the various PALS will
> do. As well as the B+K I have a PC ISA board from the 1980s that will do the
> various pals and gals although I haven't used it in years just check the
> programmer supports the PALs you want to use

Hehe! I was looking for software for my Needham PB-10 earlier. I
actually found some that is supposed to run under XP but I have to put
it in a computer with ISA slots. I should give up the ghost.

I went ahead and got the development board from Frank's link. It was
only $39+ shipping so it will get me into the current decade. Checked
with Digikey and they have the CPLD in 44 pin PLCC so at least I can
buy a carrier for wire wrap. Price is right too at about $2 per chip.

I will give the Lattice a look and see what I can find. I am trying to
tell myself I am better off with a 44 pin CPLD then a 28 pin GAL. The
CPLD still seems like a lot of club for the distance but prices are
about even.

Rick
From: Chris Abele on 30 Dec 2009 11:07
On 12/29/2009 6:38 PM, Frank Buss wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
>> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
>> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
>> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
>> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
>> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
>> bit of glue logic.
>
> You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
> Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
> interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx ISE
> and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
> integrated simulator.
>
> If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:
>
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm
>
> If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
> Xilinx Platform Cable.
>
> Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and some
> nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpensive,
> but I don't know the development tools.
>

Looks like the programming cable included in that kit is for a parallel
port. Few recent PCs have parallel ports anymore, and I understand that
USB-to-parallel converters generally don't work with JTAG cables (or
more accurately with the software). And while the Xilinx platform cable
is a great solution, its costs over $200.

For playing around at home I've had good luck with stuff from Digilent:
www.digilentinc.com (in fact they made the board in your kit). They
have USB JTAG cable that's compatible with Xilinx tools and only costs
$60. They also have two types of USB JTAG cable that work with their
free programming software (called Adept) and are even less expensive.
These are all on the "Cables & connectors" page.

For playing with very simple logic Digilent also has a small board with
a CoolRunner CPLD for $18 (look for "C-Mod"). It's basically just a way
to mount the PLCC and bring the connections to DIP pads for easy
experimenter access, but sometimes that's really handy.

Of course the C-Mod is only 64 macrocells. Digilent also has fairly
inexpensive FPGA experimenter boards: the "Basys2" board has a Spartan
3E with 100k gates for $80, and the "Nexys" board has a Spartan 3 with
400k gates for $90. Those boards have USB built in, and don't even
require an additional programming cable.

Chris



From: Peter Van Epp on 30 Dec 2009 13:50
Rick <richardcortese(a)gmail.com> writes:

>On Dec 29, 4:44=A0pm, van...(a)sfu.ca (Peter Van Epp) wrote:
>> Rick <richardcort...(a)gmail.com> writes:
><snip>

>Hehe! I was looking for software for my Needham PB-10 earlier. I
>actually found some that is supposed to run under XP but I have to put
>it in a computer with ISA slots. I should give up the ghost.

I still have the XT clone that it originally ran in (and several other
ISA machines :-)). I even still have an operating Z80 CPM machine (and am
building a nwe one :-)).

>I went ahead and got the development board from Frank's link. It was
>only $39+ shipping so it will get me into the current decade. Checked
>with Digikey and they have the CPLD in 44 pin PLCC so at least I can
>buy a carrier for wire wrap. Price is right too at about $2 per chip.

Horrors! Not an adapter ($$$$), a through hole PLCC socket and some
sip www sockets from Jameco (6100-1X30W-R) or Electronix Express (ssw30s)
(http://www.elexp.com/ics_sf10.htm and cheapest), All had some at $.50 some
months back but I cleaned them out :-). Cut to suitable lengths for the PLCC
pins the through hole plcc socket plugs in on .1 centers giving you a wirewrap
adapter for a couple of bucks (you may have to experiment with PLCC sockets
if the pins are too big, all those I've tried have worked though). This is how
my 84 PLCC Z80 chip is wire wrapped in.

>I will give the Lattice a look and see what I can find. I am trying to
>tell myself I am better off with a 44 pin CPLD then a 28 pin GAL. The
>CPLD still seems like a lot of club for the distance but prices are
>about even.

True, and learning the new stuff is a good thing for sure but if a PAL
will do the job, by the time you add in socket cost and board area the PALs
may still be a better bet against a PLCC device (not to mention a lot of the
CPLDs are going 3.3V only). Sometimes the old stuff is still best.

Peter Van Epp
From: Rick on 30 Dec 2009 14:26
On Dec 30, 8:07 am, Chris Abele <ccab...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12/29/2009 6:38 PM, Frank Buss wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rick wrote:
>
> >> I want to get back into some 'trivial' design work. I'm thinking my
> >> level of sophistication is still at the ~22v10 stage and using
> >> schematic capture vs. programming languages or assembler. I have read
> >> enough to know this is bad form but I still understand 74LSXX and
> >> would like to ease into topics like Verilog. Nothing I do requires
> >> more then a couple of 4 bit counters and maybe a six bit latch with a
> >> bit of glue logic.
>
> > You can do such small logic with a small CPLD, e.g. the XC9572XL from
> > Xilinx (I've managed to implement two 19 bit counters with it and a SPI
> > interface for reading). Just download the free Web Edition of Xilinx ISE
> > and then you can write Verilog or VHDL designs and test it in the
> > integrated simulator.
>
> > If you want a starter kit, maybe this one is a good idea:
>
> >http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/DO-CPLD-DK-G.htm
>
> > If you want to program it in your own boards later, I can recommend the
> > Xilinx Platform Cable.
>
> > Altera has a free web edition of the development environment, too and some
> > nice CPLDs and starter kits, and some Lattice CPLDs are really inexpensive,
> > but I don't know the development tools.
>
> Looks like the programming cable included in that kit is for a parallel
> port.  Few recent PCs have parallel ports anymore, and I understand that
> USB-to-parallel converters generally don't work with JTAG cables (or
> more accurately with the software).  And while the Xilinx platform cable
> is a great solution, its costs over $200.
>
> For playing around at home I've had good luck with stuff from Digilent:www.digilentinc.com(in fact they made the board in your kit).  They
> have USB JTAG cable that's compatible with Xilinx tools and only costs
> $60.  They also have two types of USB JTAG cable that work with their
> free programming software (called Adept) and are even less expensive.
> These are all on the "Cables & connectors" page.
>
> For playing with very simple logic Digilent also has a small board with
> a CoolRunner CPLD for $18 (look for "C-Mod").  It's basically just a way
> to mount the PLCC and bring the connections to DIP pads for easy
> experimenter access, but sometimes that's really handy.
>
> Of course the C-Mod is only 64 macrocells. Digilent also has fairly
> inexpensive FPGA experimenter boards: the "Basys2" board has a Spartan
> 3E with 100k gates for $80, and the "Nexys" board has a Spartan 3 with
> 400k gates for $90.  Those boards have USB built in, and don't even
> require an additional programming cable.
>
> Chris- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thsnkd, I did try Diligent for the 'rookie' board but they listed it
as discontinued so I went to another supplier who still had them in
stock. I am weighing my options and have room for at least one
obsolete computer.

Looks like my best choice for a development platform would be some ISA
slots, USB, serial, and printer ports which puts me somewhere back
about the year 2000 vintage computer. Not really a problem since I
have stuff on either side of that time period. If need be I can always
get a PCI printer port or serial card.

There seems to be a couple of software packages for micros like the
Pony programmer that I may get interested in.

Rick
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