Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: kenseto on 24 Oct 2009 11:18 On Oct 23, 11:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 23, 8:32 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 23, 6:37 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 23, 4:31 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 23, 12:15 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Oct 23, 11:49 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 11:02 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 10:25 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Oct 21, 4:43 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 19, 12:31 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 4:51 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:15 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 11:47 am, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 16, 12:06 am, mpc755 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><A light wave travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given that "the aether' (or "ether") denotes the matter filling a > > > > > > > > > > > > > given volume of space, then Yes. BUT!! Only if we measure speed in > > > > > > > > > > > > > quantity of matter traversed per unit time, i.e. density/sec. If we > > > > > > > > > > > > > measure speed in cm/sec, then c holds good only if the density is as > > > > > > > > > > > > > low as it is in a vacuum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct. When light travels through water, it is still propagating > > > > > > > > > > > > through the aether which exists in the water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < And that includes the bending of light around massive objects.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of c = densa/sec, Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of c = ft/sec, No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < Light travels relative to the aether displaced by massive objects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not so. Light waves travel relative to the ether COMPOSING massive > > > > > > > > > > > > > objects if any are part of the local aether through which a ray is > > > > > > > > > > > > > traveling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > glird > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see a clear delineation between the object and the aether. There are > > > > > > > > > > > > theories which tie the two together and there are no 'empty voids' > > > > > > > > > > > > between the aether and the object, but I see it much more conceptually > > > > > > > > > > > > easy to understand and intuitive to separate the object from the > > > > > > > > > > > > aether when discussing things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, the C-60 molecule in the double slit experiment. The C-60 > > > > > > > > > > > > molecule is always detected entering and exiting a single slit in the > > > > > > > > > > > > double slit experiment because it always enters and exits a single > > > > > > > > > > > > slit. But the C-60 molecule is 'connected' to the aether which is the > > > > > > > > > > > > wave which enters and exits both slits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see it easier to discuss light bending around the Sun as the > > > > > > > > > > > > displaced aether caused by the Sun causing the light to bend. Not the > > > > > > > > > > > > aether composing the Sun causing the light to bend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Light travels through the Earth's atmosphere. The light is traveling > > > > > > > > > > > > through the aether associated with the Earth's atmosphere. Where does > > > > > > > > > > > > the Earth's atmosphere end and there being what we would consider to > > > > > > > > > > > > be 'just aether'? I don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I still see it as the light being bent by the aether displaced by > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sun, not the displaced aether composing the Sun even though the > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun and the displaced aether are connected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Earth exists in the Sun's entrained aether. Does this entrained > > > > > > > > > > > > aether still compose the Sun? I find that confusing.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Objects are the matter they contain. > > > > > > > > > > > And the 'matter' does not include the 'aether' which exists in and > > > > > > > > > > around the object. > > > > > > > > > > 'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein'http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Extras/Einstein_ether.html > > > > > > > > > > "Now comes the anxious question:- Why must I in the theory distinguish > > > > > > > > > the K system above all K' systems, which are physically equivalent to > > > > > > > > > it in all respects, by assuming that the ether is at rest relatively > > > > > > > > > to the K system? For the theoretician such an asymmetry in the > > > > > > > > > theoretical structure, with no corresponding asymmetry in the system > > > > > > > > > of experience, is intolerable. If we assume the ether to be at rest > > > > > > > > > relatively to K, but in motion relatively to K', the physical > > > > > > > > > equivalence of K and K' seems to me from the logical standpoint, not > > > > > > > > > indeed downright incorrect, but nevertheless unacceptable.." > > > > > > > > > > Such is the reason why Einstein incorrectly concluded the notion of > > > > > > > > > motion cannot be applied to the aether. > > > > > > > > > > Einstein failed to realize the aether can be at rest relative to K and > > > > > > > > > at rest relative to K'. > > > > > > > > > He didn't have to do that the speed of light is isotropic in all > > > > > > > > inertial framesand > > > > > > > > That is only true if the frames "are physically equivalent to it in > > > > > > > all respects", which is impossible if A and A' are co-located.. > > > > > > > > If A and A' are not co-located and the aether is at rest relative to > > > > > > > the embankment and at rest relative to the train, then you have > > > > > > > Simultaneity of Relativity: > > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > > > > It's either one or the other. Either A and A' are co-located and B and > > > > > > > B' are co-located in which case it is physically impossible for the > > > > > > > frames to be inertial frames of reference because the aether cannot be > > > > > > > at rest relative to both, or A and A' are not co-located and B and B' > > > > > > > are not co-located. > > > > > > > > It is physically impossible in nature for A and A' to be co-located > > > > > > > and for B and B' to be co-located and for the train frame of reference > > > > > > > and the embankment frame of reference to be physically equivalent in > > > > > > > all respects. > > > > > > > The aether is always at rest....A/A' and B/B' are two strikes of > > > > > > lightning. M and M' are at different equal distances from the strikes > > > > > > and the speed of light is isotropic in both frames and therefore M and > > > > > > M' will see the strikes to be simultaneous but at different times > > > > > > (because they are at different equal distances from the strikes.. > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > If A/A' is a single point in three dimensional space where a single > > > > > lightning strike occurs and B/B' is a single point in three > > > > > dimensional space where a single lightning strike occurs, and the > > > > > embankment and the train are moving relative to one another, it is > > > > > physically impossible for the aether to be at rest relative to both. > > > > > No observer is at rest in the aether. However, the structure of the > > > > aether is such that the speed of light is isotropic in all inertial > > > > frames. What this means is that light will take different times to > > > > cover an equal physical distance in different frames (different states > > > > of absolute motion). The following link will illustrate what I mean..http://www.geocities.com/kn_seto/2008experiment.pdf > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > To say no observer is at rest in the aether, but the aether is such > > > that it behaves as if it is at rest in all frames is the same thing as > > > to believe in magic. > > > I didn't say that the observer is at rest in the aether. LET assumes > > that there is an aether and it uses the aether frame to do > > calculations. SR assumes that all frames are equivalent, including the > > aether frame so it uses the aether frame to do calculations. That's > > why SR and LET have the same math and that's why both the LET and SR > > observers assert that all all clock moving wrt them are running slow > > and all rulers moving wrt them are contracted. > > > Ken Seto > > I didn't say you said the observer is at rest in the aether. I said > you said no observer is at rest in the aether. No observer at rest in > the aether but the aether being at rest in all frames of reference is > physically impossible. In didn't say that the aether is at rest in all inertial frames. I said that all objects are in a state of absolute motion in the aether. > > > > > > Light propagates at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > that's why he concluded that the notion of motion > > > > > > > > cannot applied to the aether. However, he failed to realize that the > > > > > > > > speed of light on earth is isotropic only in the same gravitational > > > > > > > > potential. Verticlly the speed of light is anisotropic. I have > > > > > > > > designed experiments to detect absolute motion in the vertical > > > > > > > > direction in the following link:http://www.geocities.com.kn_seto/2008experiment.pdf > > > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > > - Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: PD on 24 Oct 2009 11:26 On Oct 24, 9:34 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > The MM experiment did not find the aether because it is entrained by > the Earth. > Small problem. No medium that is frictionless can be entrained.
From: mpc755 on 24 Oct 2009 11:29 On Oct 24, 11:18 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Oct 23, 11:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I didn't say you said the observer is at rest in the aether. I said > > you said no observer is at rest in the aether. No observer at rest in > > the aether but the aether being at rest in all frames of reference is > > physically impossible. > > In didn't say that the aether is at rest in all inertial frames. I > said that all objects are in a state of absolute motion in the aether. > If the object is at rest in its frame of reference and the aether is at rest in the frame of reference, then the object is at rest in the aether.
From: mpc755 on 24 Oct 2009 11:42 On Oct 24, 11:18 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Oct 23, 11:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I didn't say you said the observer is at rest in the aether. I said > > you said no observer is at rest in the aether. No observer at rest in > > the aether but the aether being at rest in all frames of reference is > > physically impossible. > > In didn't say that the aether is at rest in all inertial frames. I > said that all objects are in a state of absolute motion in the aether. > If the object is at rest in its frame of reference and the aether is at rest in the frame of reference, then the object is at rest in the aether. If the aether is in motion relative to the frames of reference, then the marks made by the lightning strike at A/A' and B/B' are irrelevant in terms of where the light travels from without knowing how the aether is in motion relative to the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference. Light propagates outward at 'c' similar to dropping a pebble into a pool of water. If the pool of water is on the train, then the wave will ripple outward from the point on the train. If the pool of water is stationary relative to the embankment, the wave will ripple outward relative to the point in three dimensional space in the train frame of reference. I realize you are going to keep having it both ways, where the aether is in motion relative to the frame of reference without impacting the propagation of light, but that is what I am saying is incorrect. Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether, not a frame of reference.
From: mpc755 on 24 Oct 2009 11:45
On Oct 24, 11:18 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Oct 23, 11:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I didn't say you said the observer is at rest in the aether. I said > > you said no observer is at rest in the aether. No observer at rest in > > the aether but the aether being at rest in all frames of reference is > > physically impossible. > > In didn't say that the aether is at rest in all inertial frames. I > said that all objects are in a state of absolute motion in the aether. > If the object is at rest in its frame of reference and the aether is at rest in the frame of reference, then the object is at rest in the aether. If the aether is in motion relative to the frames of reference, then the marks made by the lightning strike at A/A' and B/B' are irrelevant in terms of where the light travels from without knowing how the aether is in motion relative to the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference. Light propagates outward at 'c' similar to dropping a pebble into a pool of water. If the pool of water is on the train, then the wave will ripple outward from the point on the train. If the pool of water is stationary relative to the embankment, the wave will ripple outward relative to the point in three dimensional space in the embankment frame of reference. I realize you are going to keep having it both ways, where the aether is in motion relative to the frame of reference without impacting the propagation of light, but that is what I am saying is incorrect. Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether, not a frame of reference. |