Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: mpc755 on 31 Oct 2009 22:07 On Oct 31, 8:29 pm, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...(a)my-deja.com> wrote: > > > But the question is, from where does the light emit from? > > And the answer is, it depends on what you are using as a reference for > position. In the train frame the pebble hit the pool in the center. > In the train frame the pool isn't moving so the center of the pool > continues to mark where the pebble hit. But in the track frame the > pool is moving, so its center no longer marks where the pebble hit > relative to things in the track frame. > > > In the > > pebble being dropped into a pool of water on the moving train, when > > the wave associated with the ripple hits the hand of the Observer on > > the embankment, where has the ripple traveled from? > > Again it depends on who you ask and what they are referring to for > position. > > > Do you say the > > ripple was created in the Observer on the embankment's frame of > > reference in the past, or do you say the ripple was create where the > > pebble was dropped into the pool on the train? > > If you ask a track observer it happen where the pebble hit the water > relative to the track observers. The pool moved on but the point > where the pebble hit is still in the same place relative to the track > observers. They don't agree with the train observers that say the > pool isn't moving. > The track Observer doesn't even know there is a pebble or a pool until he places his hand through the window and into the pool. All he knows is a wave hits his hand. When he backtracks from where the wave hit his hand it leads to where the center of the pool *is* when the wave hit his hand. This is how light works. You do not 'see' a photon travel to you. All you do is detect the photon when it hits you. Where the pebble was dropped in three dimensional space in the embankment frame of reference is meaningless in terms of the origination point of the wave or the distance it traveled to the Observer on the embankment. > > > > A light > > > > wave isn't tied to a frame of reference. Frames of reference are > > > > mathematical constructs. > > > > Correct. We construct them as we se fit. > > > > Now tell me how you think you can measure the speed of light without > > > using time or distance. > > > > To determine the speed of light you need to measure the distance > > > traveled and the time it took to travel. Those measurements depend > > > entirely on the coordinate system (frame of reference) used. You can > > > make the answer anything you want to depending on how you set up the > > > coordinate system. > > > And that is incorrect. Where the light originated from is dependent on > > the aether it is propagating through. > > We make our measurements using a coordinate system, not the aether. And that is incorrect. > If there are multiple objects moving through an area of space you > wouldn't even know what motion applies to your aether in different > spots as it passes through. > For the most part that is correct. If you want to assume the aether is at rest relative to you in order to estimate where the emission point was in your frame of reference that is fine, but you are assuming and estimating how far the light traveled to reach you. That doesn't mean you are correct. To truly know where the emission point of the light was in three dimensional space and how far the light traveled to reach you, you would need to know the effects the aether had on the light wave.. In Einstein's train thought experiment, if the Observer on the embankment assumes they are at rest relative to the aether and the light wave traveled from A and B to where the Observer is a M and the Observer on the train assumes they are at rest relative to the aether and the light wave traveled from A' and B' to where the Observer is at M', one of the Observers is incorrect. There are points where the effects of the moving aether does register. The Pioneer Effect is such an example. The Pioneer Satellites slow down when they 'fall out of' the Sun's entrained aether. Jupiter's outer moons orbit in the opposite direction of the inner moons because the inner moons are in Jupiter's entrained aether. The outer moons 'fell out of' Jupiter's entrained aether and orbit in the other direction, but all of Jupiter's moons are kept in orbit by Jupiter's displaced aether which pushes back. > > > > > > Light does not travel at a speed other than 'c' relative to any > > > > system. > > > > > What is incorrect is tying the emission point of a photon of light to > > > > a particular frame of reference based on a observer in the frame of > > > > reference. > > > > > If you drop a pebble into the center of a pool of water on a moving > > > > train, the ripple propagates outward at the same speed in all > > > > directions relative to the center of the pool on the train. When an > > > > Observer on the embankment sticks his hand through the window of the > > > > train and sticks his hand into the pool and the ripple hits his hand, > > > > the ripple has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to > > > > where the observers hand *is*. > > > > So you are tying the emission point of that wave to a particular point > > > in the train frame which is moving in the track frame. > > > Yes, because the water is at rest relative in the train frame of > > reference. > > But the track frame doesn't use that moving water as a reference > point. It uses points that are at rest in the track frame. > And that is incorrect. > > > > Where the pebble was dropped into the pool in three dimensional space > > > > in the past in the Observer on the embankment's frame of reference is > > > > irrelevant in terms of the distance, the path, and the speed the wave > > > > associated with the ripple traveled to the Observer. > > > > To the observer on the train yes, but not to the observer on the > > > embankment. > > > To both Observer's yes. > > Track observers only use points at rest in the track frame as > reference points. The point where the ripples are radiating from is > not at rest in the track frame. > The wave is traveling relative to the water it exists in. If the maximum speed of a wave created by the pebble was 1 mile-per-minute and the wave reaches an Observer on the train and an Observer on the embankment who's hands were placed side-by-side in the pool 1 mile from where the pebble was dropped into the center of the pool and the Observer on the train concluded the pebble was dropped into the pool 1 minute ago and the Observer on the embankment concluded the pebble had to have been dropped into the pool more than 1 minute ago because where the pebble was dropped into the pool in the Observer on the embankments frame of reference is more than 1 mile from where the Observer on the embankment is, the Observer on the embankment would be incorrect. I realize you are never going to understand this, but this is the whole point I am trying to make with light traveling a 'c' relative to the aether. If a burst of light occurs in the center of pool of water, the light wave takes the same amount of time to reach the Observer on the train and the Observer on the embankment whose hands are placed side-by-side into the pool. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the flash of light in the center of the pool had to occur earlier than the Observer on the train does, the Observer on the embankment is incorrect. Now, remove the water. The aether is entrained on the train. The light travels at 'c' from the center of the pool to where the Observer on the train and the Observer on the embankment, who sticks his head into an open window, detect the light wave. Both Observers detect the light wave simultaneously. The Observer on the train determines when the flash occurred by determining how far away the center of the pool where the flash occurred *is* when the light wave reaches him. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the flash occurred earlier than the Observer on the train does because the Observer on the embankment concludes the flash of light occurred at some point down the tracks in the embankment frame of reference, the Observer on the embankment concludes incorrectly. > > > > > If you drop a pebble into the center of a pool of water on the train, > > > > and the wave ripples outward at 100mph relative to the center of the > > > > pool on the train, when the train is passing the Observer on the > > > > embankment and the Observer on the embankment puts his hand through a > > > > window on the train and puts his hand into the pool and the wave > > > > associated with the ripple hits the Observer's hand, how far did the > > > > wave travel and how fast was the wave traveling when it hit the > > > > Observer on the embankments hand? > > > > > The distance the wave traveled is the distance from where the center > > > > of the pool *is* to where the Observer's hand *is* when the wave > > > > associated with the ripple hits the observer on the hand. > > > > > The wave traveled at 100mph from the center of the pool to the > > > > Observer's hand. > > > > Not in the embankment's frame of reference. > > > Yes, in the embankment's frame of reference. In all frames of > > reference, the wave associated with the ripple moves relative to the > > water. > > And if that water is moving it affects the measured speed of the wave > relative to points at rest in the frame of reference. > > > If a pebble is dropped into a round pool with a radius of 1 mile and > > the wave propagates outward from the center of the pool at 1 mile-per- > > minute and one minute after the pebble is dropped into the middle of > > the pool an Observer on the embankment puts his hand into the pool and > > the wave associated with the ripple hits the Observer on the > > embankments hand, when does the Observer on the embankment conclude > > the pebble was dropped and how far does the Observer on the embankment > > conclude the wave traveled to reach him? > > Not going to waste my time, see above. > > > The Observer on the embankment concludes the pebble was dropped into > > the center of the pool and the wave created by the pebble traveled at > > 1 mile-per-minute to reach him and traveled one mile from the center > > of the pool to his hand. > > Plus whatever distance the pool traveled while the wave was traveling. > Irrelevant. Not going to waste my time on this. See above. > > Now, you can determine where the pebble was dropped into the pool in > > three dimensional space in the Observer on the embankments frame of > > reference and decide to determine the wave associated with the pebble > > traveled from that point to where your hand is, but that is > > misleading, and when it comes to light, which travels at 'c', using > > the point in three dimensional space relative to the Observer on the > > embankments frame of reference and concluding the light wave traveled > > from that point to the Observer's hand at 'c' would be incorrect. > > > Instead of dropping a pebble into the pool a flash of light occurs at > > the center of the pool and the associated light wave travels outward > > from the center of the pool at 'c'. Since the water is entrained in > > the pool on the train, the water is at rest relative to the wave of > > light. When the light wave reaches the Observer on the embankment's > > hand, it will have traveled from the center of the pool to the > > Observer's hand and the light wave will have traveled at the speed of > > light in water from the center of the pool to the Observer's hand. > > > Now, if you remove the water and the aether is entrained on the train, > > then the light wave will propagate outward from the center of the pool > > at 'c' in all directions relative to the aether which is at rest > > relative to the train. When the light wave reaches the Observer on the > > embankment's hand, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' from where > > the center of the pool on the train *is* to the Observer's hand *is* > > because the aether is at rest relative to the train. > > A man on the train takes a baseball bat and holds it out stationary in > front of him. Another man on the train can walk in front of the bat > without fear because the bat isn't moving. Now you stick your hand > out as the train passes by at 100 mph. Does the bat hit your had at 0 > mph or 100 mph? If the man swings the bat so that it is moving at 10 > mph relative to the train does it hit you at 10 mph or 110 mph? The > two frames do not consider the bat to be traveling the same speed. > Because that is a bat. Not a wave. Now, you can say if a wave of water hits you that is moving in a train that is moving at 100mph, you are going to feel the wave hit you a lot harder than if you were on the train. That is accurate but not correct. You feel the water hit you. You detect the wave. If the wave is an aether wave which when it hits your eye collapses and is detected as a particle, if the aether is entrained on the train, the light wave traveled at 'c' from where it was emitted on the train, not at 'c' + 100mph. It doesn't matter if you are on the train or on the embankment, the photon light wave travels at 'c' through the entrained aether on the train. > The difference with light is that we use it as a standard when > constructing the coordinate system. Take two observers with clocks > that tick at the same rate and place them some distance apart. We > have declared that light travels at c in either direction. If > observer A reflects light off observer B and times its return he can > calculate the distance between them. Observer B can do the same thing > and he will get the same answer as A. It wouldn't matter if someone > else said the aether was moving relative to them, they are still in > agreement on the distance between them. Knowing the distance between > them they can then synchronize their clocks, again based on the fact > that the one way trip at c must take half the time of the two way trip > at c. If they then time the one way speed of light they better get c > because that is what they used to set the clock! > > You are trying to build a dragged aether theory. But there is no way > it can work if multiple observers in different states of motion are > sharing the same empty space. The reason why you do not think it can work is because you do not understand it. You think Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity is correct. It is incorrect. When a lightning strike occurs at A/A' and another lightning strike occurs at B/B', if the aether is at rest relative to the embankment, the light waves travel from A and B at 'c' to ALL Observers and the marks made at A' and B' are irrelevant in terms of how far the light travels to ANY Observer. If the aether is at rest relative to the train, the light wave travel at 'c' from A' and B' at 'c' to ALL Observers and the marks make at A and B are irrelevant in terms of how far the light travels to ANY Observer. > You can't say that the aether in on > spot is moving in 20 different directions at the same time. So you > end up with one aether that provides the illusion of being at rest in > all frames, as in LET, or you forget about the aether and just agree > that each frame measures the speed of light to be c as in SR. There is a better way. You realize light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. If you do not know the state of the aether, you assume the emission point is a particular point in three dimensional space relative to the Observer's frame of reference. However, you know the state of the aether cannot be at rest relative to the embankment and at rest relative to the train so you correctly conclude Einstein's Train Thought Experiment is physically impossible. If the Observer at M assumes the aether is at rest relative to the embankment and the Observer at M' assumes the aether is at rest relative to the train, one of the Observers is incorrect. If the Observer at M on the embankment sees the light from the lightning strikes at A/A' and B/B' simultaneously and measures to A and B and concludes the lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the Observer at M' on the train sees the light from the lighting strike at B/B' prior to the light from the lightning strike at A/A' and measures to A' and B' and concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred earlier than the lightning strike at A', one of the Observers is incorrect. One, or both Observers, are measuring to incorrect emission points. If the aether is at rest relative to the train or at rest relative to the embankment, one of the Observers is measuring to emission points which do not reflect where the lightning strikes occurred in three dimensional space. For the embankment frame of reference and the train frame of reference to be physically equal in all respects, the aether would have to be moving the same, but opposite, for each frame of reference. This moving aether would distort the light waves and the light from the lightning strike at A/A' and the light from the lightning strike at B/ B' would not reach either Observer as a single event, but the light waves from each lightning strike would reach both Observers over time as the light waves interacted with the moving aether.
From: BURT on 31 Oct 2009 22:14 On Oct 31, 6:08 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 31, 8:59 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 31, 2:06 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 31, 3:07 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > You can accelerate and leave light behind in the aether. It takes time > > > > to catch up. > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > You can't 'leave light behind' since nothing can travel at 'c' except > > > a wave through the aether, and 'you' are also moving relative to the > > > aether. > > > Physical connectedness is at the speed of light in the aether. You can > > move ahead of light creating more distance for it to travel before > > reaching you. This is the cause of the relativity of simultaneity. > > Leaving light behind or vice versa. > > > Mitch Raemsch > > Take a look at the animation which represents Simultaneity of > Relativity: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > If you superimpose the frames of reference over the same three > dimensional space, something else happens because the aether will be > either at rest relative to the train or at rest relative to the > embankment or not at rest relative to either. > > Either way, it doesn't matter, light travels at 'c' relative to the > aether.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - You can move toward light it will reach you sooner. Move ahead of light and you leave it behind in space. This is effecting simultaneity in the aether. Mitch Raemsch
From: mpc755 on 31 Oct 2009 22:24 On Oct 31, 10:14 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Oct 31, 6:08 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 31, 8:59 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 31, 2:06 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 31, 3:07 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > You can accelerate and leave light behind in the aether. It takes time > > > > > to catch up. > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > You can't 'leave light behind' since nothing can travel at 'c' except > > > > a wave through the aether, and 'you' are also moving relative to the > > > > aether. > > > > Physical connectedness is at the speed of light in the aether. You can > > > move ahead of light creating more distance for it to travel before > > > reaching you. This is the cause of the relativity of simultaneity. > > > Leaving light behind or vice versa. > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > Take a look at the animation which represents Simultaneity of > > Relativity: > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > If you superimpose the frames of reference over the same three > > dimensional space, something else happens because the aether will be > > either at rest relative to the train or at rest relative to the > > embankment or not at rest relative to either. > > > Either way, it doesn't matter, light travels at 'c' relative to the > > aether.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > You can move toward light it will reach you sooner. Move ahead of > light and you leave it behind in space. This is effecting simultaneity > in the aether. > > Mitch Raemsch What effects simultaneity in the aether is the state of the aether.
From: mpc755 on 31 Oct 2009 23:20 On Oct 31, 10:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 31, 8:29 pm, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...(a)my-deja.com> wrote: > > > > > > But the question is, from where does the light emit from? > > > And the answer is, it depends on what you are using as a reference for > > position. In the train frame the pebble hit the pool in the center. > > In the train frame the pool isn't moving so the center of the pool > > continues to mark where the pebble hit. But in the track frame the > > pool is moving, so its center no longer marks where the pebble hit > > relative to things in the track frame. > > > > In the > > > pebble being dropped into a pool of water on the moving train, when > > > the wave associated with the ripple hits the hand of the Observer on > > > the embankment, where has the ripple traveled from? > > > Again it depends on who you ask and what they are referring to for > > position. > > > > Do you say the > > > ripple was created in the Observer on the embankment's frame of > > > reference in the past, or do you say the ripple was create where the > > > pebble was dropped into the pool on the train? > > > If you ask a track observer it happen where the pebble hit the water > > relative to the track observers. The pool moved on but the point > > where the pebble hit is still in the same place relative to the track > > observers. They don't agree with the train observers that say the > > pool isn't moving. > > The track Observer doesn't even know there is a pebble or a pool until > he places his hand through the window and into the pool. All he knows > is a wave hits his hand. When he backtracks from where the wave hit > his hand it leads to where the center of the pool *is* when the wave > hit his hand. This is how light works. You do not 'see' a photon > travel to you. All you do is detect the photon when it hits you. Where > the pebble was dropped in three dimensional space in the embankment > frame of reference is meaningless in terms of the origination point of > the wave or the distance it traveled to the Observer on the > embankment. > > > > > > A light > > > > > wave isn't tied to a frame of reference. Frames of reference are > > > > > mathematical constructs. > > > > > Correct. We construct them as we se fit. > > > > > Now tell me how you think you can measure the speed of light without > > > > using time or distance. > > > > > To determine the speed of light you need to measure the distance > > > > traveled and the time it took to travel. Those measurements depend > > > > entirely on the coordinate system (frame of reference) used. You can > > > > make the answer anything you want to depending on how you set up the > > > > coordinate system. > > > > And that is incorrect. Where the light originated from is dependent on > > > the aether it is propagating through. > > > We make our measurements using a coordinate system, not the aether. > > And that is incorrect. > > > If there are multiple objects moving through an area of space you > > wouldn't even know what motion applies to your aether in different > > spots as it passes through. > > For the most part that is correct. If you want to assume the aether is > at rest relative to you in order to estimate where the emission point > was in your frame of reference that is fine, but you are assuming and > estimating how far the light traveled to reach you. That doesn't mean > you are correct. To truly know where the emission point of the light > was in three dimensional space and how far the light traveled to reach > you, you would need to know the effects the aether had on the light > wave.. In Einstein's train thought experiment, if the Observer on the > embankment assumes they are at rest relative to the aether and the > light wave traveled from A and B to where the Observer is a M and the > Observer on the train assumes they are at rest relative to the aether > and the light wave traveled from A' and B' to where the Observer is at > M', one of the Observers is incorrect. > > There are points where the effects of the moving aether does register. > The Pioneer Effect is such an example. The Pioneer Satellites slow > down when they 'fall out of' the Sun's entrained aether. Jupiter's > outer moons orbit in the opposite direction of the inner moons because > the inner moons are in Jupiter's entrained aether. The outer moons > 'fell out of' Jupiter's entrained aether and orbit in the other > direction, but all of Jupiter's moons are kept in orbit by Jupiter's > displaced aether which pushes back. > > > > > > > > Light does not travel at a speed other than 'c' relative to any > > > > > system. > > > > > > What is incorrect is tying the emission point of a photon of light to > > > > > a particular frame of reference based on a observer in the frame of > > > > > reference. > > > > > > If you drop a pebble into the center of a pool of water on a moving > > > > > train, the ripple propagates outward at the same speed in all > > > > > directions relative to the center of the pool on the train. When an > > > > > Observer on the embankment sticks his hand through the window of the > > > > > train and sticks his hand into the pool and the ripple hits his hand, > > > > > the ripple has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to > > > > > where the observers hand *is*. > > > > > So you are tying the emission point of that wave to a particular point > > > > in the train frame which is moving in the track frame. > > > > Yes, because the water is at rest relative in the train frame of > > > reference. > > > But the track frame doesn't use that moving water as a reference > > point. It uses points that are at rest in the track frame. > > And that is incorrect. > > > > > > Where the pebble was dropped into the pool in three dimensional space > > > > > in the past in the Observer on the embankment's frame of reference is > > > > > irrelevant in terms of the distance, the path, and the speed the wave > > > > > associated with the ripple traveled to the Observer. > > > > > To the observer on the train yes, but not to the observer on the > > > > embankment. > > > > To both Observer's yes. > > > Track observers only use points at rest in the track frame as > > reference points. The point where the ripples are radiating from is > > not at rest in the track frame. > > The wave is traveling relative to the water it exists in. If the > maximum speed of a wave created by the pebble was 1 mile-per-minute > and the wave reaches an Observer on the train and an Observer on the > embankment who's hands were placed side-by-side in the pool 1 mile > from where the pebble was dropped into the center of the pool and the > Observer on the train concluded the pebble was dropped into the pool 1 > minute ago and the Observer on the embankment concluded the pebble had > to have been dropped into the pool more than 1 minute ago because > where the pebble was dropped into the pool in the Observer on the > embankments frame of reference is more than 1 mile from where the > Observer on the embankment is, the Observer on the embankment would be > incorrect. > > I realize you are never going to understand this, but this is the > whole point I am trying to make with light traveling a 'c' relative to > the aether. If a burst of light occurs in the center of pool of water, > the light wave takes the same amount of time to reach the Observer on > the train and the Observer on the embankment whose hands are placed > side-by-side into the pool. If the Observer on the embankment > concludes the flash of light in the center of the pool had to occur > earlier than the Observer on the train does, the Observer on the > embankment is incorrect. > > Now, remove the water. The aether is entrained on the train. The light > travels at 'c' from the center of the pool to where the Observer on > the train and the Observer on the embankment, who sticks his head into > an open window, detect the light wave. Both Observers detect the light > wave simultaneously. The Observer on the train determines when the > flash occurred by determining how far away the center of the pool > where the flash occurred *is* when the light wave reaches him. If the > Observer on the embankment concludes the flash occurred earlier than > the Observer on the train does because the Observer on the embankment > concludes the flash of light occurred at some point down the tracks in > the embankment frame of reference, the Observer on the embankment > concludes incorrectly. > > > > > > > > If you drop a pebble into the center of a pool of water on the train, > > > > > and the wave ripples outward at 100mph relative to the center of the > > > > > pool on the train, when the train is passing the Observer on the > > > > > embankment and the Observer on the embankment puts his hand through a > > > > > window on the train and puts his hand into the pool and the wave > > > > > associated with the ripple hits the Observer's hand, how far did the > > > > > wave travel and how fast was the wave traveling when it hit the > > > > > Observer on the embankments hand? > > > > > > The distance the wave traveled is the distance from where the center > > > > > of the pool *is* to where the Observer's hand *is* when the wave > > > > > associated with the ripple hits the observer on the hand. > > > > > > The wave traveled at 100mph from the center of the pool to the > > > > > Observer's hand. > > > > > Not in the embankment's frame of reference. > > > > Yes, in the embankment's frame of reference. In all frames of > > > reference, the wave associated with the ripple moves relative to the > > > water. > > > And if that water is moving it affects the measured speed of the wave > > relative to points at rest in the frame of reference. > > > > If a pebble is dropped into a round pool with a radius of 1 mile and > > > the wave propagates outward from the center of the pool at 1 mile-per- > > > minute and one minute after the pebble is dropped into the middle of > > > the pool an Observer on the embankment puts his hand into the pool and > > > the wave associated with the ripple hits the Observer on the > > > embankments hand, when does the Observer on the embankment conclude > > > the pebble was dropped and how far does the Observer on the embankment > > > conclude the wave traveled to reach him? > > > Not going to waste my time, see above. > > > > The Observer on the embankment concludes the pebble was dropped into > > > the center of the pool and the wave created by the pebble traveled at > > > 1 mile-per-minute to reach him and traveled one mile from the center > > > of the pool to his hand. > > > Plus whatever distance the pool traveled while the wave was traveling. > > Irrelevant. Not going to waste my time on this. See above. > > > > Now, you can determine where the pebble was dropped into the pool in > > > three dimensional space in the Observer on the embankments frame of > > > reference and decide to determine the wave associated with the pebble > > > traveled from that point to where your hand is, but that is > > > misleading, and when it comes to light, which travels at 'c', using > > > the point in three dimensional space relative to the Observer on the > > > embankments frame of reference and concluding the light wave traveled > > > from that point to the Observer's hand at 'c' would be incorrect. > > > > Instead of dropping a pebble into the pool a flash of light occurs at > > > the center of the pool and the associated light wave travels outward > > > from the center of the pool at 'c'. Since the water is entrained in > > > the pool on the train, the water is at rest relative to the wave of > > > light. When the light wave reaches the Observer on the embankment's > > > hand, it will have traveled from the center of the pool to the > > > Observer's hand and the light wave will have traveled at the speed of > > > light in water from the center of the pool to the Observer's hand. > > > > Now, if you remove the water and the aether is entrained on the train, > > > then the light wave will propagate outward from the center of the pool > > > at 'c' in all directions relative to the aether which is at rest > > > relative to the train. When the light wave reaches the Observer on the > > > embankment's hand, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' from where > > > the center of the pool on the train *is* to the Observer's hand *is* > > > because the aether is at rest relative to the train. > > > A man on the train takes a baseball bat and holds it out stationary in > > front of him. Another man on the train can walk in front of the bat > > without fear because the bat isn't moving. Now you stick your hand > > out as the train passes by at 100 mph. Does the bat hit your had at 0 > > mph or 100 mph? If the man swings the bat so that it is moving at 10 > > mph relative to the train does it hit you at 10 mph or 110 mph? The > > two frames do not consider the bat to be traveling the same speed. > > Because that is a bat. Not a wave. Now, you can say if a wave of water > hits you that is moving in a train that is moving at 100mph, you are > going to feel the wave hit you a lot harder than if you were on the > train. That is accurate but not correct. You feel the water hit you. > You detect the wave. If the wave is an aether wave which when it hits > your eye collapses and is detected as a particle, if the aether is > entrained on the train, the light wave traveled at 'c' from where it > was emitted on the train, not at 'c' + 100mph. It doesn't matter if > you are on the train or on the embankment, the photon light wave > travels at 'c' through the entrained aether on the train. > > > The difference with light is that we use it as a standard when > > constructing the coordinate system. Take two observers with clocks > > that tick at the same rate and place them some distance apart. We > > have declared that light travels at c in either direction. If > > observer A reflects light off observer B and times its return he can > > calculate the distance between them. Observer B can do the same thing > > and he will get the same answer as A. It wouldn't matter if someone > > else said the aether was moving relative to them, they are still in > > agreement on the distance between them. Knowing the distance between > > them they can then synchronize their clocks, again based on the fact > > that the one way trip at c must take half the time of the two way trip > > at c. If they then time the one way speed of light they better get c > > because that is what they used to set the clock! > > > You are trying to build a dragged aether theory. But there is no way > > it can work if multiple observers in different states of motion are > > sharing the same empty space. > > The reason why you do not think it can work is because you do not > understand it. You think Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity is > correct. It is incorrect. > > When a lightning strike occurs at A/A' and another lightning strike > occurs at B/B', if the aether is at rest relative to the embankment, > the light waves travel from A and B at 'c' to ALL Observers and the > marks made at A' and B' are irrelevant in terms of how far the light > travels to ANY Observer. If the aether is at rest relative to the > train, the light wave travel at 'c' from A' and B' at 'c' to ALL > Observers and the marks make at A and B are irrelevant in terms of how > far the light travels to ANY Observer. > > > You can't say that the aether in on > > spot is moving in 20 different directions at the same time. So you > > end up with one aether that provides the illusion of being at rest in > > all frames, as in LET, or you forget about the aether and just agree > > that each frame measures the speed of light to be c as in SR. > > There is a better way. You realize light travels at 'c' relative to > the aether. If you do not know the state of the aether, you assume the > emission point is a particular point in three dimensional space > relative to the Observer's frame of reference. > > However, you know the state of the aether cannot be at rest relative > to the embankment and at rest relative to the train so you correctly > conclude Einstein's Train Thought Experiment is physically impossible. > If the Observer at M assumes the aether is at rest relative to the > embankment and the Observer at M' assumes the aether is at rest > relative to the train, one of the Observers is incorrect. If the > Observer at M on the embankment sees the light from the lightning > strikes at A/A' and B/B' simultaneously and measures to A and B and > concludes the lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the > Observer at M' on the train sees the light from the lighting strike at > B/B' prior to the light from the lightning strike at A/A' and measures > to A' and B' and concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred earlier > than the lightning strike at A', one of the Observers is incorrect. > One, or both Observers, are measuring to incorrect emission points. If > the aether is at rest relative to the train or at rest relative to the > embankment, one of the Observers is measuring to emission points which > do not reflect where the lightning strikes occurred in three > dimensional space. > > For the embankment frame of reference and the train frame of reference > to be physically equal in all respects, the aether would have to be > moving the same, but opposite, for each frame of reference. This > moving aether would distort the light waves and the light from the > lightning strike at A/A' and the light from the lightning strike at B/ > B' would not reach either Observer as a single event, but the light > waves from each lightning strike would reach both Observers over time > as the light waves interacted with the moving aether. Point of clarification: The aether can be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative to the embankment if the train and the embankment occupy different places in three dimensional space. If the train and embankment frames occupy different places in three dimensional space and the aether is at rest relative to the train frame of reference and the aether is at rest relative to the embankment frame of reference the lightning strikes at A, A', B and B' will result in Simultaneity of Relativity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk If there is a single lightning strike at A/A' and there is a single lightning strike at B/B' and the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference occupy the same three dimensional space, then the aether cannot be at rest relative to the train frame of reference and be at rest relative to the embankment frame of reference.
From: mpc755 on 31 Oct 2009 23:34
On Oct 31, 10:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > You can't say that the aether in on > > spot is moving in 20 different directions at the same time. So you > > end up with one aether that provides the illusion of being at rest in > > all frames, as in LET, or you forget about the aether and just agree > > that each frame measures the speed of light to be c as in SR. > > There is a better way. You realize light travels at 'c' relative to > the aether. If you do not know the state of the aether, you assume the > emission point is a particular point in three dimensional space > relative to the Observer's frame of reference. > > However, you know the state of the aether cannot be at rest relative > to the embankment and at rest relative to the train so you correctly > conclude Einstein's Train Thought Experiment is physically impossible. > If the Observer at M assumes the aether is at rest relative to the > embankment and the Observer at M' assumes the aether is at rest > relative to the train, one of the Observers is incorrect. If the > Observer at M on the embankment sees the light from the lightning > strikes at A/A' and B/B' simultaneously and measures to A and B and > concludes the lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the > Observer at M' on the train sees the light from the lighting strike at > B/B' prior to the light from the lightning strike at A/A' and measures > to A' and B' and concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred earlier > than the lightning strike at A', one of the Observers is incorrect. > One, or both Observers, are measuring to incorrect emission points. If > the aether is at rest relative to the train or at rest relative to the > embankment, one of the Observers is measuring to emission points which > do not reflect where the lightning strikes occurred in three > dimensional space. > > For the embankment frame of reference and the train frame of reference > to be physically equal in all respects, the aether would have to be > moving the same, but opposite, for each frame of reference. This > moving aether would distort the light waves and the light from the > lightning strike at A/A' and the light from the lightning strike at B/ > B' would not reach either Observer as a single event, but the light > waves from each lightning strike would reach both Observers over time > as the light waves interacted with the moving aether. Point of clarification: The aether can be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative to the embankment if the train and the embankment occupy different places in three dimensional space. If the train and embankment frames occupy different places in three dimensional space and the aether is at rest relative to the train frame of reference and the aether is at rest relative to the embankment frame of reference the lightning strikes at A, A', B and B' will result in Simultaneity of Relativity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk If there is a single lightning strike at A/A' and there is a single lightning strike at B/B' and the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference occupy the same three dimensional space, then the aether cannot be at rest relative to the train frame of reference and be at rest relative to the embankment frame of reference. |