Smartmeter: Anyone knows how to get detailed info on them?
in [Design]
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From: Jim Thompson on 30 Apr 2010 18:54 On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:44:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: [snip] > >It can lead to even more bizarre results: I once spoke to a business >owner who couldn't avoid peaks because of the way their machines worked. >During a planned outage they rented a big Diesel and found out that >their cost for electrical energy _dropped_, even when factoring in the >daily costs of the generator. I'm not surprised. In the early '70's perpetual side-kick technician Jim Foster and I worked up numbers for a VW-engine-driven generator for his cabin out in the boonies... amortized equipment cost plus maintenance plus gasoline (no road tax) yielded about 2�/kWh, about 1/2 of the going rate from APS. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
From: krw on 30 Apr 2010 19:08 On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:44:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >D Yuniskis wrote: >> Hi Joerg, >> >> Joerg wrote: >>> D Yuniskis wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:21:49 -0700) it happened D Yuniskis >>>>> <not.going.to.be(a)seen.com> wrote in <hra52o$pc0$1(a)speranza.aioe.org>: >>>> >>>> [overly ambitious snipping?] >>>> >>>>> That is what they do here, once a year. >>>> >>>> presumably, a response to my comment: >>>> "Why not read it once a *year*? Estimate ALL of the >>>> consumption during the summer months (highest rates, >>>> typically) and bilk the user accordingly?!" >>>> >>>> If that is standard practice, then your tariffs, no doubt, >>>> are designed for "year round average usage" -- they aren't >>>> opting to charge you "summer rates" for your year round >>>> usage just because they *happened* to read the meter in >>>> the summer, etc. >>> >>> Much worse where we live, in Northern California. Here we must pay a >>> "small-business-punisher-rate". The millisecond you exceed a rather >>> modest baseline usage the cost per kWh skyrockets. That's why I'd be >>> squarely against estimates because then they can really sock it to >>> you. And probably will. The propane company tried it once, charging us >>> a "minimum usage fee" for zero gallons and then the full amount next >>> month. I ended that practice right in the tracks. >> >> That's why the only *fair* way of dealing with "estimates" is >> to average the estimated period into the adjacent "measured" >> periods. This ends up dinging the utility (on average) for >> their decision *not* to read the meter (instead of dinging the >> user) >> >> Some business tariffs are based on "peak demand" (hence, >> KWh meters called "demand registers"). I.e., what you pay for >> the billing cycle is based on your *largest* demand *in* >> that cycle. I.e., a business that is "closed 99% of the time" >> but, when open (in that remaining 1%) uses a *lot* of electricity >> pays *more* than a business that uses "half" as much but >> on a *continuous* (i.e., 100%) basis. >> >> This has led to all sorts of bizarre schemes -- most of which >> increase the *total* energy used -- to shift the load or >> average it out. E.g., some firms "make ice" at night (when the >> business is closed and there is *no* significant energy demand) >> and then use the ice in lieu of running their ACbrrr's >> during the following day (when the *added* load of the ACbrrr >> would dramatically increase their "peak demand"). >> >> The goal of the utility (besides making money :> ) is to have >> a nice *steady* load (since variations in load require >> power plants that have quick response times -- like coal >> and gas fired -- which tend to be more expensive to operate). > > >It can lead to even more bizarre results: I once spoke to a business >owner who couldn't avoid peaks because of the way their machines worked. >During a planned outage they rented a big Diesel and found out that >their cost for electrical energy _dropped_, even when factoring in the >daily costs of the generator. If (big if) the charges reflect the marginal costs of the electricity, this isn't bizarre at all. He's doing the peaking rather than forcing the power company to do it.
From: Joerg on 30 Apr 2010 19:11 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:44:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > > [snip] >> It can lead to even more bizarre results: I once spoke to a business >> owner who couldn't avoid peaks because of the way their machines worked. >> During a planned outage they rented a big Diesel and found out that >> their cost for electrical energy _dropped_, even when factoring in the >> daily costs of the generator. > > I'm not surprised. In the early '70's perpetual side-kick technician > Jim Foster and I worked up numbers for a VW-engine-driven generator > for his cabin out in the boonies... amortized equipment cost plus > maintenance plus gasoline (no road tax) yielded about 2�/kWh, about > 1/2 of the going rate from APS. > I only have a link in German but over there you can buy power/heating combos like this: http://www.focus.de/immobilien/energiesparen/energie-mini-blockheizkraftwerke-golf-strom-aus-dem-keller_aid_452064.html Some are one-cylinder engines that can burn just about anything, others like the one from Volkswagen burn natural gas. The engines have been modified so they feature very long oil change and other service intervals, and really long warranties. I've seen one with a 10-year warranty, pretty amazing. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: JosephKK on 1 May 2010 01:14
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:14:24 -0400, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:35:14 GMT, the renowned Jan Panteltje ><pNaonStpealmtje(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:56:34 +1000) it happened "David L. Jones" >><altzone(a)gmail.com> wrote in <p6QBn.101954$Ht4.22179(a)newsfe20.iad>: >> >>>Joerg wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us >>>> that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether >>>> we want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual >>>> the utility is stone-walling: >>>> >>>> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 >>>> >>>> Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics >>>> design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to >>>> find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & >>>> board layouts of those things? >>>> >>>> BTW, we used to have a meter with LCD readout and all until years ago. >>>> It eventually failed, maybe because it gets hit by the full morning >>>> sun. The utility replaced it with, tada, a classic mechanical meter. >>>> Probably because those simply work ... >>> >>>I wonder what happens if the new gadget completely fails for, err, some >>>mysterious reason... Do you get your electrons for free until they can >>>replace it? >>> >>>Dave. >> >>I dunno, but I have been calculating... >>It is still not economical, but for 1000 Euro I have a good 2 kW generator... >>With all that modern 'electronic' grid stuff coming... >>Any kid with a PC and a wireless board can take out a countries electricity. >>A generator is good thing to have:-) >>Those meters are not here yet, >>There is a law being proposed that people can refuse to have those. > >Seems like Germany already has such a law. Are these laws motivated by >privacy issues or more mundane concerns about accuracy or whatever? > > >Best regards, >Spehro Pefhany They are motivated by quieting rabble rousing groups. |