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From: Puddin' Man on 30 Mar 2010 20:56
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:44:39 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote:

Sorry to take so long to respond. Nice weather hit and I gotta
zillion things to do.

>Puddin' Man wrote:
>
>>
>> What resolution are you running on host? On guest?
>>
>
>The host OS is WinXP, and runs 1280x1024 on a 17" monitor.
>
>You start Virtual PC, and the console opens, with a list of your
>installed (or CD based) OSes.
>
>I start my copy of Win2K in there. A 1024x768 or 1152x908 window
>opens, with what looks like a Win2K desktop in there. The OS plays
>a part in what guest resolutions are supported. The video interface
>emulated in the virtual environment, is an unaccelerated S3 chip of
>some sort. ...

Suppose I build a desktop with current hardware (i.e., i5, H55 chipset) and no
W2k video driver, load XP64 as host, add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest.
W2k will *think* it is doing S3 or similar video?. What would you expect it to
look like?

>>
>>> VPC does like to install shims, when it comes to hardware. I've noticed
>>> a change in the behavior of the floppy drive, after VPC was installed.
>>> And when I recently changed to the new motherboard, the networking inside
>>> VPC stopped working. The cure is supposed to be to uninstall it and
>>> reinstall it again, so it can install its shim setup for the new hardware.
>>
>> Hmmmmmmm. What happens to permanent guests when you uninstall?
>
>The uninstall and reinstall, isn't *supposed* to upset the setup of the
>environment. I'll have to test that, and soon. I'll probably back
>up C; before testing, just to be safe. (Yes, Windows has System Restore,
>and yes, I've used it, but I also like to make backup copies of C:, if
>I have any doubts about the outcome of any experiments I might try.)

Full bulletproof backup sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't mind knowing
how the uninstall etc turned out.

>>
>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:34:56 -0400, Intel Guy <Intel(a)Guy.com> wrote:
>> Microsoft found a way to eliminate the need to have virtualization turned
>> on at the BIOS level. The company is releasing an updated version of XP Mode
>> today to users and OEMs for download, she said.
>
>Thanks for that. I didn't know they changed it. ...

Evidently a lot of folks didn't know. Perhaps a breakdown in communication
between MS and Intel.

I will likely shelve my build plans for a while. Not certain how to handle
the numerous choices that have to be made up front.

Many Thanks,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

From: Paul on 30 Mar 2010 20:48
Puddin' Man wrote:

>
> Suppose I build a desktop with current hardware (i.e., i5, H55 chipset) and no
> W2k video driver, load XP64 as host, add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest.
> W2k will *think* it is doing S3 or similar video?. What would you expect it to
> look like?

Well, it looks like the Win2K desktop :-) The difference between running on top of
an S3 emulation and running on a real GTX285, is one is good for games, and the other
one isn't. If you wanted to run Microsoft Office, I would think the S3 emulation
will be fine for that.

>
> I will likely shelve my build plans for a while. Not certain how to handle
> the numerous choices that have to be made up front.
>
> Many Thanks,
> P
>

Planning is a good thing. I kinda rushed my last upgrade, but I knew when I
started, that no solution I could find, would meet all the requirements I had.
The previous Asrock board, came as close to what I wanted, as I could get, and
the VIA chipset let the box down. And I knew that no matter what other board
I bought, I would have regrets. I really like the legacy interfaces,
and I don't like having to re-buy all my peripheral solutions, just
because I got a new motherboard. For example, I like the machine to have
one serial port - I have at least one hardware programming device, that uses
that port. I have an external dialup modem I like, and that uses a serial port.
(Dialup is for emergencies, like when ADSL is down for hours at a time.)
I don't use serial all that often, but when I need it, I don't expect to spend
a couple days looking for a USB to serial adapter, so I can get back the
functionality I had. The thing is, the SuperI/O chip on a motherboard, might
actually have the RS-232 serial interface on it, as well as PS/2 mouse interface,
and it just isn't wired up.

I'm also not that happy with the slot setup on the new boards. On the one
hand, I think PCI Express x16 is fine, and I don't have a problem with the
usage of those. But when it comes to x1 slots, to me right now, they're a dead
waste. I'd much rather have a bunch of PCI slots - not because PCI is
wonderful, but because all the odds and ends I've got, have PCI connectors
on them. And if I did buy a PCI Express x1 card now, it wouldn't fit in
any of the older computers here. These new motherboards would be fine, if
the house burned down, and I was starting from scratch :-)

Paul
From: Mike Easter on 30 Mar 2010 21:59
Paul wrote:

> These new motherboards would be fine, if
> the house burned down, and I was starting from scratch :-)

Ha!

Now there's an idea that would help me get rid of some of the junk
around here.... Hmmm..


--
Mike Easter
From: Puddin' Man on 31 Mar 2010 16:22
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:48:33 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote:

>Puddin' Man wrote:
>
>>
>> Suppose I build a desktop with current hardware (i.e., i5, H55 chipset) and no
>> W2k video driver, load XP64 as host, add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest.
>> W2k will *think* it is doing S3 or similar video?. What would you expect it to
>> look like?
>
>Well, it looks like the Win2K desktop :-) The difference between running on top of
>an S3 emulation and running on a real GTX285, is one is good for games, and the other
>one isn't. If you wanted to run Microsoft Office, I would think the S3 emulation
>will be fine for that.

Forget gaming for a moment. I'll try again.

1.) You build a desktop with current Intel hardware (i.e., i5 or i7) and a
decent video device (maybe $80). You load XP64 as host and thoroughly test
the system. Video performance is per your expectation: you are a happy
camper.

2.) You add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest, and thoroughly test
the W2k system (no games: any/all manner of Email, browser/Flash, editor, usenet
client, Adobe reader, other programs, etc etc).

What is your rational expectation for video performance in 2.)?

>>
>> I will likely shelve my build plans for a while. Not certain how to handle
>> the numerous choices that have to be made up front.
>
>Planning is a good thing. I kinda rushed my last upgrade, but I knew when I
>started, that no solution I could find, would meet all the requirements I had.
>The previous Asrock board, came as close to what I wanted, as I could get, and
>the VIA chipset let the box down. And I knew that no matter what other board
>I bought, I would have regrets. I really like the legacy interfaces,
>and I don't like having to re-buy all my peripheral solutions, just
>because I got a new motherboard. For example, I like the machine to have
>one serial port - I have at least one hardware programming device, that uses
>that port. I have an external dialup modem I like, and that uses a serial port.
>(Dialup is for emergencies, like when ADSL is down for hours at a time.)
>I don't use serial all that often, but when I need it, I don't expect to spend
>a couple days looking for a USB to serial adapter, so I can get back the
>functionality I had. The thing is, the SuperI/O chip on a motherboard, might
>actually have the RS-232 serial interface on it, as well as PS/2 mouse interface,
>and it just isn't wired up.
>
>I'm also not that happy with the slot setup on the new boards. On the one
>hand, I think PCI Express x16 is fine, and I don't have a problem with the
>usage of those. But when it comes to x1 slots, to me right now, they're a dead
>waste. I'd much rather have a bunch of PCI slots - not because PCI is
>wonderful, but because all the odds and ends I've got, have PCI connectors
>on them. And if I did buy a PCI Express x1 card now, it wouldn't fit in
>any of the older computers here. These new motherboards would be fine, if
>the house burned down, and I was starting from scratch :-)

I know what you mean, and sympathize. I don't have so many legacy devices
that I use, but the basement if full of 'em.

Actually doubt there are that many x1 devices in use today, but don't
actually know. Retired some years ago, out of touch.

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

From: Paul on 31 Mar 2010 22:08
Puddin' Man wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:48:33 -0400, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote:
>
>> Puddin' Man wrote:
>>
>>> Suppose I build a desktop with current hardware (i.e., i5, H55 chipset) and no
>>> W2k video driver, load XP64 as host, add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest.
>>> W2k will *think* it is doing S3 or similar video?. What would you expect it to
>>> look like?
>> Well, it looks like the Win2K desktop :-) The difference between running on top of
>> an S3 emulation and running on a real GTX285, is one is good for games, and the other
>> one isn't. If you wanted to run Microsoft Office, I would think the S3 emulation
>> will be fine for that.
>
> Forget gaming for a moment. I'll try again.
>
> 1.) You build a desktop with current Intel hardware (i.e., i5 or i7) and a
> decent video device (maybe $80). You load XP64 as host and thoroughly test
> the system. Video performance is per your expectation: you are a happy
> camper.
>
> 2.) You add VPC2007, and install W2k as guest, and thoroughly test
> the W2k system (no games: any/all manner of Email, browser/Flash, editor, usenet
> client, Adobe reader, other programs, etc etc).
>
> What is your rational expectation for video performance in 2.)?
>

Flash 10 movie playback. Flawless. But refuses to go full screen. Only
the windowed playback mode works. And CPU usage is about 2% in that mode.

Quicktime Player 7.1.6 (for Win2K). Pretty close to Flash 10 performance,
but with the occasional glitch when there was a lot of motion in the source
(H.264). About 25% CPU usage in Task Manager.

Cyberlink PowerDVD is not quite as good. A little bit out of sync on audio. A
hint of judder in playback, not as smooth as I've seen otherwise. I was playing
a movie from the DVD drive. I expect the code in there, has all sorts of
tricks that rely on real hardware, and the emulated hardware in the
environment isn't very exciting.

VLC Player. Doesn't work worth a damn.

The experience varies a lot, with the kind of software being used.

From my perspective, it's pretty good. But I've seen the attempts
that weren't quite as smooth and powerful, like SoftWindows many
years ago. With the earlier virtual environments, you had to be a
lot more patient.

I keep a copy of Acrobat Reader 9 installed in Win2K, and for documents
that my other copy of Reader won't read, I just open the Win2K session and
read the documents there. I don't really like the interface on the
Acrobat Reader 9, so it's installed where it won't bother me quite as much
(only used if absolutely necessary).

Paul
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