Solar cheaper than nuclear
in [Design]
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From: Jim Thompson on 9 Aug 2010 17:45 On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 12:44:16 -0700, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in >message news:0jj0669ec1evm7n4fpbn7n1fh1bhhbrgt5(a)4ax.com... >> It's for real! Shows what can be done if you keep government away and >> leave the profit motive to drive the direction of research. > >The DoE is loaning them $1.45B, which isn't exactly keeping the government >away. :-) When sucker money is offered, you take it. Every time they hand out money, I get a cut... I love it... why should I turn it away? > >But it looks like a could be a "win" for everyone involved, which is great... Hopefully! ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Spice is like a sports car... Performance only as good as the person behind the wheel.
From: Jim Thompson on 9 Aug 2010 17:45 On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 14:47:55 -0500, "amdx" <amdx(a)knology.net> wrote: > >"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in >message news:0jj0669ec1evm7n4fpbn7n1fh1bhhbrgt5(a)4ax.com... >> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:22:28 -0500, "amdx" <amdx(a)knology.net> wrote: >> >>> >>>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote >>>in >>>message news:qca066drftpc62sse9dotlbl9vtvjefeqp(a)4ax.com... >>>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:55:04 -0500, Jim Yanik <jyanik(a)abuse.gov> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>"tm" <the_obamunist(a)whitehouse.gov> wrote in >>>>>news:i3nnde$bpi$1(a)adenine.netfront.net: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Mark" <makolber(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:f6abed25-a7aa-4940-9367-4c39a9fe913c(a)w30g2000yqw.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>[snip] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> True but largely irrelevant. The US has lots of desert, and - with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> advance of global warming - will probably soon have even more. This >>>>>>> land is useless for anything except solar power generation and super- >>>>>>> conducting cable means that the power generated there can be used >>>>>>> pretty much anywhere. >>>>> >>>>>can't use the desert;a solar farm would upset the ecology,and the long >>>>>distance power lines would harm the view. >>>>>Plus,you need WATER to clean the panels,lots of it. >>>> >>>> A non-Silicon solution... >>>> >>>> http://www.aps.com/main/green/Solana/default.html >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> I did an image search for Solana, >>>found it interesting, others might also. >>>http://tiny.cc/hp6re If you're into bubble-butts :-) >>> MikeK >>> >> >> I mentioned Solana here several years ago. When I heard of it I sent >> an E-mail to APS asking how it worked. Got a nice call from an >> engineer who works there who walked me thru its operation. Kewl! >> >> It's for real! Shows what can be done if you keep government away and >> leave the profit motive to drive the direction of research. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > Ya, butt what about Solana? :-) > MikeK >Oh, I noticed you altered my post, now somebody might look! > If they're into bubble-butts ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Spice is like a sports car... Performance only as good as the person behind the wheel.
From: krw on 9 Aug 2010 18:57 On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 02:56:07 +0100, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bruere(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On 09/08/2010 02:33, Mark wrote: >> On Aug 8, 9:21 pm, Bill Sloman<bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>> On Aug 8, 8:30 am, John Larkin >>> >>> >>> >>> <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> On 07 Aug 2010 21:35:07 GMT, John Doe<j...(a)usenetlove.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>>> John Larkin<jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax<dirk.bru...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> "Summary Solar photovoltaic system costs have fallen steadily >>>>>>> for decades. They are projected to fall even farther over the >>>>>>> next 10 years. Meanwhile, projected costs for construction of >>>>>>> new nuclear plants have risen steadily over the last decade, >>>>>>> and they continue to rise. In the past year, the lines have >>>>>>> crossed in North Carolina. Electricity from new solar >>>>>>> installations is now cheaper than electricity from proposed new >>>>>>> nuclear plants." >>> >>>>>> The difference is that the US government subsidizes solar and >>>>>> punishes nuclear. Nukes work fine in Japan and France. They >>>>>> especially work fine at night. >>> >>>>> The French have more courage than we do. Ack! >>> >>>> How humiliating. >>> >>>>> And then there is the amount of surface area required to produce >>>>> the same amount of power, it is unrealistic. The idea of windmills >>>>> and solar panels as a primary source of power is sold to na�ve >>>>> people. >>> >>>> Unfortunately, solar isn't very concentrated. A square meter of >>>> full-blast sunlight delivers a couple of hundred watts peak and >>>> averages maybe 50. The walls of a natural gas boiler, or nuclear fuel >>>> rods, run megawatts per square meter, 24/7. >>> >>> True but largely irrelevant. The US has lots of desert, and - with the >>> advance of global warming - will probably soon have even more. This >>> land is useless for anything except solar power generation and super- >>> conducting cable means that the power generated there can be used >>> pretty much anywhere. >>> >>> Photovoltaic cells are useless at night, but thermal solar can heat up >>> loads of molten salt during the day and use it to keep generating >>> power overnight. >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Sloman, Nijmegen >> >> It's easy to tell when solar becomes economical... >> >> when the factory that makes solar panels has them on the roof and uses >> them to power itself.. >> >> Mark > >And the factory making nuclear power plant elements has its own nuclear >reactor for just that purpose. But the solar nuts (you) keep telling us that point-of-use PV is the way to go. If it were, wouldn't a PV plant use PV? No one is saying that nukes are scale to point-of-use. ...or perhaps you think that PV plants should only be built in >1000MW quanta too?
From: Koning Betweter on 9 Aug 2010 19:59 On 2010-08-07 23:35:07 +0200, John Doe said: > And then there is the amount of surface area required to produce > the same amount of power, it is unrealistic. The idea of windmills > and solar panels as a primary source of power is sold to na�ve > people. I don't have a garden on my roof, so there is many room for a solar-system! Nuclear energy need uranium. I don't like the governements of countries who are selling uranium. The sun delivers much more energy as all nuclear systems in the world, it's only a matter of getting better equipment to make energy out of sunlight. I gues with Nano-technology Solar systems will gonna have much more efficiency in the near future. It will be cheaper to produce solarpanels too. Nuclear-energy will always be dangerous, besides it needs a network for transport, solar systems make consumers independent when they generate their own energy. That's not na�ve, that's clever!!! -- Ik praat liever tegen een domoor, dan tegen dovemansoren.
From: Tim Williams on 9 Aug 2010 21:41
"Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.com> wrote in message news:erednZBfQ-QfE_3RnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... > It made me wonder if there's a way to build aluminum smelters, or other > energy-heavy industries, such that they can go on- and off-line rapidly. Electrowinning would go well here, but this is only done point-of-use, like near copper mines in Chile. A bit far from Bonneville to do any good. And shipping ore concentrate just doesn't make sense. I don't know what other metals would be effective. Precious metals are already metallic, other semi-noble metals (like nickel) aren't common enough to produce in the same way as copper. Anything else, for example iron, lead or zinc, is too cheap to be worth spending electricity on when they can be made easily with coke. Electrorefining comes to mind, which is done for lead and pyrometallurgical copper. I don't know that it would even be economical to move such a plant, even if the electricity were dramatically cheaper. Otherwise, you can do the same thing, and just push it back later, with a vanadium redox cell. The electrochemical equivalent of pumping water in and out of a lake. Or molten salt sorts of things, etc. Tim -- Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |