Solar-pumped laser power transmission, a way to dramatically decrease launch costs?
in [Physics]
|
From: Brad Guth on 22 Apr 2010 15:47 On Apr 22, 5:39 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 21, 2:52 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 21, 8:40 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 18, 1:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 16, 4:33 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 7, 10:01 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > It all sounds perfectly doable, and without a great deal of R&D.. > > > > > > > I especially like this spiral welding pipe machine: > > > > > > http://zencharn.en.alibaba.com/product/253978808-209459346/spiral_wel... > > > > > > > A sphere forming and welding machine would certainly be terrific. How > > > > > > about we invent a metallic plasma spray, used to create extremely > > > > > > tough spheres, with as thin of shell as necessary? > > > > > > > ~ BG > > > > > > Plasma spray is but one technique to achieve the end you seek > > > > > >http://nsmwww.eng.ohio-state.edu/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereol... > > > > > > A stereolithography system using electroplating produces metal parts. > > > > > These parts must be heat treated to be work hardened. But, they're > > > > > very interesting! > > > > > >http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/c740a14b3d7d7010Vg... > > > > > > An electrolyte bath containing metal ions in solution feeds a > > > > > 'printhead' that moves in X,Y and Z coordinates, and plates metal onto > > > > > a 'base' from solution. Since the metal is conductive, the 'base' can > > > > > be the part itself, allowing complex structures to be formed, very > > > > > similar to those produced by stereolithography. > > > > > In the extreme vacuum of Selene L1 (at the very least worth 3e-18 > > > > bar), whereas it seems plasma spray or ion transfers of pure alloys > > > > into becoming perfect spheres, as such would achieve by far the most > > > > idealistic end results at the least cost. Such spheres could be as > > > > formed thin or robust and even a km radii if need be, because size, > > > > volume or mass has extremely little affect. > > > > > ~ BG > > > > NASA did a study on this back in the 60s. Large pressure vessels are > > > easy to form in vacuum, and zero gee, regardless of location. One > > > major issue is work hardening which is addressed by method of cooling > > > - quenching - the metal as its formed. > > > That "work hardening" factor doesn't seem all that insurmountable, > > because lasers of mostly IR could keep whatever material or new > > products at whatever ideal temperature we like, for as long as it > > takes. As well as according to Apollo 13, it's nearly always > > cryogenic between Earth and our moon, so therefore cooling or > > quenching whatever should not be any problem. > > > ~ BG > > Right researchers encountered problems in the R&D with metal being too > soft and fixed the softness problem by work hardening the metal upon > forming. Researchers developed a technique of quenching which > provided the mechanical deformation needed to work harden the metal > when formed by rapidly cooling the metal once formed. Cooling not > heating is the problem in vacuum. Not according to our Apollo era, whereas instead cabin heating was a big problem. So, how come they (namely A13) nearly froze to death? > Quenching is a rate of cooling > problem and rate of cooling in a vacuum is a function of the fourth > power of temperature by Stephan Boltzman. Metal solids are not hot > enough to cool by radiation fast enough, which is a re-statement of > the original problem. So, you can't do direct forming of work > hardened metals in a vacuum. You can quench metals formed in vacuum > by spraying something on the metal that then rapidly evaporates to > vacuum. Something like water. Water is explosive at 3e-18 bar (perhaps 3e-21 bar within Selene L1 would be a whole lot worse), perhaps even nasty if discharged as cryogenic ice as long as that sun shines and the IR comes off that physically dark moon and/or from Earth. How about using cryogenic sodium or ceramic powders? It seems artificial shades could buy as much cooling as you like. How the heck did fused lunar basalt manage to get so hard? How about forming composite spheres as near entirely those of CVD carbonado (black diamond of 490 GPa) with a thin coating of whatever alloy inside/outside? > > This was the same sort of problem encountered by manufacturers of > swords. Sword manufacturers had to heat the sword and plunge the > sword in a vat of water to cool it rapidly. Safe storing of 99.5% h2o2 doesn't require any special alloy sphere work-hardening. In fact softer alloys might seem a whole lot better. Storing of liquid hydrocarbons (such as Mook synfuel from coal) doesn't require any special alloy work-hardening. Insulating of large spheres doesn't require any special alloy or other kinds of molecular substance work-hardening, not that extremely thermal cycling can't be accommodated. ~ BG
From: William Mook on 22 Apr 2010 08:39 On Apr 21, 2:52 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 21, 8:40 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 16, 4:33 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 7, 10:01 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > It all sounds perfectly doable, and without a great deal of R&D. > > > > > > I especially like this spiral welding pipe machine: > > > > > http://zencharn.en.alibaba.com/product/253978808-209459346/spiral_wel... > > > > > > A sphere forming and welding machine would certainly be terrific. How > > > > > about we invent a metallic plasma spray, used to create extremely > > > > > tough spheres, with as thin of shell as necessary? > > > > > > ~ BG > > > > > Plasma spray is but one technique to achieve the end you seek > > > > >http://nsmwww.eng.ohio-state.edu/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereol... > > > > > A stereolithography system using electroplating produces metal parts. > > > > These parts must be heat treated to be work hardened. But, they're > > > > very interesting! > > > > >http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/c740a14b3d7d7010Vg... > > > > > An electrolyte bath containing metal ions in solution feeds a > > > > 'printhead' that moves in X,Y and Z coordinates, and plates metal onto > > > > a 'base' from solution. Since the metal is conductive, the 'base' can > > > > be the part itself, allowing complex structures to be formed, very > > > > similar to those produced by stereolithography. > > > > In the extreme vacuum of Selene L1 (at the very least worth 3e-18 > > > bar), whereas it seems plasma spray or ion transfers of pure alloys > > > into becoming perfect spheres, as such would achieve by far the most > > > idealistic end results at the least cost. Such spheres could be as > > > formed thin or robust and even a km radii if need be, because size, > > > volume or mass has extremely little affect. > > > > ~ BG > > > NASA did a study on this back in the 60s. Large pressure vessels are > > easy to form in vacuum, and zero gee, regardless of location. One > > major issue is work hardening which is addressed by method of cooling > > - quenching - the metal as its formed. > > That "work hardening" factor doesn't seem all that insurmountable, > because lasers of mostly IR could keep whatever material or new > products at whatever ideal temperature we like, for as long as it > takes. As well as according to Apollo 13, it's nearly always > cryogenic between Earth and our moon, so therefore cooling or > quenching whatever should not be any problem. > > ~ BG Right researchers encountered problems in the R&D with metal being too soft and fixed the softness problem by work hardening the metal upon forming. Researchers developed a technique of quenching which provided the mechanical deformation needed to work harden the metal when formed by rapidly cooling the metal once formed. Cooling not heating is the problem in vacuum. Quenching is a rate of cooling problem and rate of cooling in a vacuum is a function of the fourth power of temperature by Stephan Boltzman. Metal solids are not hot enough to cool by radiation fast enough, which is a re-statement of the original problem. So, you can't do direct forming of work hardened metals in a vacuum. You can quench metals formed in vacuum by spraying something on the metal that then rapidly evaporates to vacuum. Something like water. This was the same sort of problem encountered by manufacturers of swords. Sword manufacturers had to heat the sword and plunge the sword in a vat of water to cool it rapidly.
From: William Mook on 21 Apr 2010 11:40 On Apr 18, 1:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 16, 4:33 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 7, 10:01 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > It all sounds perfectly doable, and without a great deal of R&D. > > > > I especially like this spiral welding pipe machine: > > > http://zencharn.en.alibaba.com/product/253978808-209459346/spiral_wel... > > > > A sphere forming and welding machine would certainly be terrific. How > > > about we invent a metallic plasma spray, used to create extremely > > > tough spheres, with as thin of shell as necessary? > > > > ~ BG > > > Plasma spray is but one technique to achieve the end you seek > > >http://nsmwww.eng.ohio-state.edu/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereol... > > > A stereolithography system using electroplating produces metal parts. > > These parts must be heat treated to be work hardened. But, they're > > very interesting! > > >http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/c740a14b3d7d7010Vg... > > > An electrolyte bath containing metal ions in solution feeds a > > 'printhead' that moves in X,Y and Z coordinates, and plates metal onto > > a 'base' from solution. Since the metal is conductive, the 'base' can > > be the part itself, allowing complex structures to be formed, very > > similar to those produced by stereolithography. > > In the extreme vacuum of Selene L1 (at the very least worth 3e-18 > bar), whereas it seems plasma spray or ion transfers of pure alloys > into becoming perfect spheres, as such would achieve by far the most > idealistic end results at the least cost. Such spheres could be as > formed thin or robust and even a km radii if need be, because size, > volume or mass has extremely little affect. > > ~ BG NASA did a study on this back in the 60s. Large pressure vessels are easy to form in vacuum, and zero gee, regardless of location. One major issue is work hardening which is addressed by method of cooling - quenching - the metal as its formed.
From: Brad Guth on 21 Apr 2010 14:52 On Apr 21, 8:40 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 18, 1:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 16, 4:33 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 7, 10:01 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > It all sounds perfectly doable, and without a great deal of R&D. > > > > > I especially like this spiral welding pipe machine: > > > > http://zencharn.en.alibaba.com/product/253978808-209459346/spiral_wel... > > > > > A sphere forming and welding machine would certainly be terrific. How > > > > about we invent a metallic plasma spray, used to create extremely > > > > tough spheres, with as thin of shell as necessary? > > > > > ~ BG > > > > Plasma spray is but one technique to achieve the end you seek > > > >http://nsmwww.eng.ohio-state.edu/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereol.... > > > > A stereolithography system using electroplating produces metal parts. > > > These parts must be heat treated to be work hardened. But, they're > > > very interesting! > > > >http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/c740a14b3d7d7010Vg.... > > > > An electrolyte bath containing metal ions in solution feeds a > > > 'printhead' that moves in X,Y and Z coordinates, and plates metal onto > > > a 'base' from solution. Since the metal is conductive, the 'base' can > > > be the part itself, allowing complex structures to be formed, very > > > similar to those produced by stereolithography. > > > In the extreme vacuum of Selene L1 (at the very least worth 3e-18 > > bar), whereas it seems plasma spray or ion transfers of pure alloys > > into becoming perfect spheres, as such would achieve by far the most > > idealistic end results at the least cost. Such spheres could be as > > formed thin or robust and even a km radii if need be, because size, > > volume or mass has extremely little affect. > > > ~ BG > > NASA did a study on this back in the 60s. Large pressure vessels are > easy to form in vacuum, and zero gee, regardless of location. One > major issue is work hardening which is addressed by method of cooling > - quenching - the metal as its formed. That "work hardening" factor doesn't seem all that insurmountable, because lasers of mostly IR could keep whatever material or new products at whatever ideal temperature we like, for as long as it takes. As well as according to Apollo 13, it's nearly always cryogenic between Earth and our moon, so therefore cooling or quenching whatever should not be any problem. ~ BG
From: William Mook on 26 Apr 2010 12:22
On Apr 22, 3:47 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 22, 5:39 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Apr 21, 2:52 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 21, 8:40 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 16, 4:33 am, William Mook <mokmedi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 10:01 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > It all sounds perfectly doable, and without a great deal of R&D. > > > > > > > > I especially like this spiral welding pipe machine: > > > > > > > http://zencharn.en.alibaba.com/product/253978808-209459346/spiral_wel... > > > > > > > > A sphere forming and welding machine would certainly be terrific. How > > > > > > > about we invent a metallic plasma spray, used to create extremely > > > > > > > tough spheres, with as thin of shell as necessary? > > > > > > > > ~ BG > > > > > > > Plasma spray is but one technique to achieve the end you seek > > > > > > >http://nsmwww.eng.ohio-state.edu/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereol... > > > > > > > A stereolithography system using electroplating produces metal parts. > > > > > > These parts must be heat treated to be work hardened. But, they're > > > > > > very interesting! > > > > > > >http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/c740a14b3d7d7010Vg... > > > > > > > An electrolyte bath containing metal ions in solution feeds a > > > > > > 'printhead' that moves in X,Y and Z coordinates, and plates metal onto > > > > > > a 'base' from solution. Since the metal is conductive, the 'base' can > > > > > > be the part itself, allowing complex structures to be formed, very > > > > > > similar to those produced by stereolithography. > > > > > > In the extreme vacuum of Selene L1 (at the very least worth 3e-18 > > > > > bar), whereas it seems plasma spray or ion transfers of pure alloys > > > > > into becoming perfect spheres, as such would achieve by far the most > > > > > idealistic end results at the least cost. Such spheres could be as > > > > > formed thin or robust and even a km radii if need be, because size, > > > > > volume or mass has extremely little affect. > > > > > > ~ BG > > > > > NASA did a study on this back in the 60s. Large pressure vessels are > > > > easy to form in vacuum, and zero gee, regardless of location. One > > > > major issue is work hardening which is addressed by method of cooling > > > > - quenching - the metal as its formed. > > > > That "work hardening" factor doesn't seem all that insurmountable, > > > because lasers of mostly IR could keep whatever material or new > > > products at whatever ideal temperature we like, for as long as it > > > takes. As well as according to Apollo 13, it's nearly always > > > cryogenic between Earth and our moon, so therefore cooling or > > > quenching whatever should not be any problem. > > > > ~ BG > > > Right researchers encountered problems in the R&D with metal being too > > soft and fixed the softness problem by work hardening the metal upon > > forming. Researchers developed a technique of quenching which > > provided the mechanical deformation needed to work harden the metal > > when formed by rapidly cooling the metal once formed. Cooling not > > heating is the problem in vacuum. > > Not according to our Apollo era, whereas instead cabin heating was a > big problem. So, how come they (namely A13) nearly froze to death? Because the Command Module was designed to maintain room temperatures with 2 kilowatts of electrical equipment operating continuously. The Lunar Module was designed to maintain room temperatures with 3 kilowatts of electrical equipment operating continuously. So, connected together, the two systems were set up to maintain room temperature while operating 5 kW of electrical equipment on board. Without an oxygen supply those power systems were shut down in the Command Module and the Lunar Module's systems were operated at only 5 watts to extend the duration of the fuel cell supply to make it back to Earth along a lunar free return trajectory. With the same radiator areas and mass flow off ship, and only 1/10th the electrical load, without that heat source there was a heat imbalance which reduced temperatures to the 50 degree range. http://www.spaceaholic.com/apollo_artifacts.htm > > Quenching is a rate of cooling > > problem and rate of cooling in a vacuum is a function of the fourth > > power of temperature by Stephan Boltzman. Metal solids are not hot > > enough to cool by radiation fast enough, which is a re-statement of > > the original problem. So, you can't do direct forming of work > > hardened metals in a vacuum. You can quench metals formed in vacuum > > by spraying something on the metal that then rapidly evaporates to > > vacuum. Something like water. > > Water is explosive at 3e-18 bar (perhaps 3e-21 bar within Selene L1 > would be a whole lot worse), You obviously have no direct experience with these things. A rapid reduction in pressure causes an explosive reaction with water. Water moving through pores from 1 atm to 0 atm ices up and evaporates carrying away heat. http://www.astronautix.com/craft/a7l.htm http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/701/34/ > perhaps even nasty if discharged as > cryogenic ice as long as that sun shines and the IR comes off that > physically dark moon and/or from Earth. How about using cryogenic > sodium or ceramic powders? This is an absolutely idiotic statement Brad. The difference between 1e-17 and 0 is as nothing when compared to 1 atm. So, 3e-21 makes absolutely no difference when compares to 3e-18 when compared to 1 atm. > It seems artificial shades could buy as much cooling as you like. Not when you're in a vacuum generating kilowatts of power, eating food, and exercising. > How the heck did fused lunar basalt manage to get so hard? You have absolutely no clue about anything you talk about. These statements prove it. How can someone care so much about a thing and not trouble themselves to learn something about it? > How about forming composite spheres as near entirely those of CVD > carbonado (black diamond of 490 GPa) with a thin coating of whatever > alloy inside/outside? > Totally non-sequitor. I'm sorry I tried to engage you in useful conversation. > > > This was the same sort of problem encountered by manufacturers of > > swords. Sword manufacturers had to heat the sword and plunge the > > sword in a vat of water to cool it rapidly. > > Safe storing of 99.5% h2o2 doesn't require any special alloy sphere > work-hardening. In fact softer alloys might seem a whole lot better. Ah, I see we've uncovered another entire realm of knowledge you are totally ignorant of. > Storing of liquid hydrocarbons (such as Mook synfuel from coal) > doesn't require any special alloy work-hardening. You're missing the point sir. > Insulating of large spheres doesn't require any special alloy or other > kinds of molecular substance work-hardening, not that extremely > thermal cycling can't be accommodated. ??? You have missed several points by this time - and I don't have the patience to unravel the Rubick's cube of connected errors you have made. > ~ BG |