SproutCore--over 20000 lines of new code!
in [JavaScript]
|
From: RobG on 11 Jan 2010 01:46 On Jan 11, 11:51 am, Garrett Smith <dhtmlkitc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > RobG wrote: [...] > > That is a line introduced by Apple's > > marketing team back in mid-2008 when they announced the new MobileMe > > site based on SproutCore. It makes as much sense as calling it .NET for > > the web. > > ".Net for the web" would probably not be good salesmanship for Apple. Agree. :-) > > The fact that Apple's MobileMe site doesn't even work with their own > > mobile devices (iPhone and iPod Touch) gives you some idea of how > > accurate marketing terms are. > > MobileMe? Isn't that a pay site that allows the user to sign up for > push-notifications of email and syncing photos and stuff? > > http://www.apple.com/mobileme/ > > I think I see. Yes, it is an implementation using SproutCore and an example of the quality of Apple web sites. They look terrific, but the performance is sluggish and underneath the technology seems flawed. Apple seems to have changed the WebObjects foundation of their main web site and used Prototype.js and scriptaculous.js for browser functionality. I think playing with SproutCore is an attempt to get something more integrated, like WO used to be. Apparently Apple has been working on a new js framework to be bundled with WebObjects called Gianduia, it seems to be similar to SproutCore (and also has been called "browser-side Cocoa") so perhaps they are are still trying to find their web development nirvana. > Does MobileMe use the standard iPhone notifications? Those notifications > interrupt user process to present a modal dialog. MobileMe is the website that iPhone uses it to synchronise application data (mail, calendar, bookmarks, etc.) with desktop apps using the internet (the same functionality is provided by the dock or cable connector). MobileMe doesn't do large files like iTunes songs or videos, though other applications like FileMagnet do. Alerts and dialogs are from the applications and yes, they can be modal and interrupt other applications. But that is a consequence of the application design, it is not MobileMe per se. [...] > Well, iPhone is about hype, and the phone itself, as a phone, is of very > poor quality. Maybe, but it sure gave the "smart phone" market a kick in the right direction. :-) > In a way, SproutCore and iPhone match up. Sadly, yes. > > Have a play with the SproutCore site on an iPhone, you'll notice the > > following: [...] > > I could go on. And all that from a demo page for a framework that is > > supposed to include mobile devices and specifically target iPhone. > > That sounds awful. After looking at the code, I am not surprised that it > has such problems. To me it is a quality issue. The demos may or may not reflect the quality of the underlying SproutCore framework, but their shabbiness is a reflection on the development team's commitment to quality. They are a terrible advertisement. > I've seen places where I can spot exactly how it will > fail (using the `rules` property, using `userAgent` checks). I'm really > surprised that such a large codebase was designed for mobile. Yeah, around 600kb minified. Given that the framework includes MVC and server-side components, I would have expected it to minimise what is sent to the client and maximise efficiency. It appears to follow the old Access database idea of shovelling everything off to the client. It was a bad strategy then for much the same reasons it is a bad strategy now. A couple of the main ones are that it hogs bandwidth and is hugely dependent on the client behaving - and browsers are known to be very badly behaved. But that seems to be where web applications are headed - instead of HTML pages with a bit of script to help out, the entire page is generated by script, with constant AJAX calls in the background to sync with the server or get more data. It seems like an incredible waste of resources to me and is utterly dependent on users having fast, modern machines, one of a limited number of recent browsers (IE 6 is out), and plenty of fast bandwidth. Many web applications I've developed have had to run in IE 6 over a 64k connection - frameworks like SproutCore are dead in the water. > > It claims to be "small(ish)" yet is bloated. It claims to do more with > > less code (where have we heard that before?) but doesn't. The clock demo > > can be written in far less code and be more functional. > > Small is a relative term. Yes, but even in "modern" script library terms, 645KB minified is big. Where "small" really means large, "small(ish)" means enormous. [...] > I've seen the demos for the 280 north cappucino (same guys). While the > code is atrocious, they speak and present well. I contacted them about their demos (which were similarly dismal) ages ago. They didn't seem to think it was an issue. There seems to be something of a disconnect between the public and web personas, perhaps that is what raises my hackles. -- Rob
From: Ross Boucher on 11 Jan 2010 01:56 > > I've seen the demos for the 280 north cappucino (same guys). While the > > code is atrocious, they speak and present well. > > I contacted them about their demos (which were similarly dismal) ages > ago. They didn't seem to think it was an issue. There seems to be > something of a disconnect between the public and web personas, perhaps > that is what raises my hackles. Just pointing out this error. Sproutcore and Cappuccino have nothing to do with each other. Not sure where this "same guys" idea came from. Also not sure if the rest of these comments are supposed to be about Cappuccino or about Sproutcore.
From: RobG on 11 Jan 2010 02:08 On Jan 11, 4:56 pm, Ross Boucher <rbouc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I've seen the demos for the 280 north cappucino (same guys). While the > > > code is atrocious, they speak and present well. > > > I contacted them about their demos (which were similarly dismal) ages > > ago. They didn't seem to think it was an issue. There seems to be > > something of a disconnect between the public and web personas, perhaps > > that is what raises my hackles. > > Just pointing out this error. Sproutcore and Cappuccino have nothing > to do with each other. OK. > Not sure where this "same guys" idea came from. > Also not sure if the rest of these comments are supposed to be about > Cappuccino or about Sproutcore. SproutCore. The only comments specifically about Cappuccino are in that last paragraph. -- Rob
From: Ross Boucher on 11 Jan 2010 02:13 On Jan 10, 11:08 pm, RobG <rg...(a)iinet.net.au> wrote: > On Jan 11, 4:56 pm, Ross Boucher <rbouc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I've seen the demos for the 280 north cappucino (same guys). While the > > > > code is atrocious, they speak and present well. > > > > I contacted them about their demos (which were similarly dismal) ages > > > ago. They didn't seem to think it was an issue. There seems to be > > > something of a disconnect between the public and web personas, perhaps > > > that is what raises my hackles. > > > Just pointing out this error. Sproutcore and Cappuccino have nothing > > to do with each other. > > OK. > > > Not sure where this "same guys" idea came from. > > Also not sure if the rest of these comments are supposed to be about > > Cappuccino or about Sproutcore. > > SproutCore. The only comments specifically about Cappuccino are in > that last paragraph. > > -- > Rob About the demos? I can't recall any conversation we might have had, but I'll agree with you. We haven't been keeping them up to date with the framework, and we haven't made the time to create more. They are all on Github, and we've started to collect other projects there as well, which is a step in the right direction. We're planning a new community site which will also make it easier to find things.
From: Garrett Smith on 11 Jan 2010 02:44
Ross Boucher wrote: >>> I've seen the demos for the 280 north cappucino (same guys). While the >>> code is atrocious, they speak and present well. >> I contacted them about their demos (which were similarly dismal) ages >> ago. They didn't seem to think it was an issue. There seems to be >> something of a disconnect between the public and web personas, perhaps >> that is what raises my hackles. > > Just pointing out this error. Sproutcore and Cappuccino have nothing > to do with each other. Not sure where this "same guys" idea came from. I see. I believed that both were using Objective-J. Both use some sort of compiling technology, but Objective-J is used by Cappucino, while Sproutcore has a different compiling technology. Correct? > Also not sure if the rest of these comments are supposed to be about > Cappuccino or about Sproutcore. The code being discussed here, in this thread, was Cappucino. This NG has had code posted from Cappucino before. It has all the same silly global variables YES, NO, etc. Thanks for setting the record straight. -- Garrett comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/ |