Synergy Batteries -- Can anyone comment?
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From: SMS on 6 Jul 2010 16:25 On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote: > In message<i0v9cr01i0r(a)news1.newsguy.com>, J. Clarke > <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> writes >> >> There appear to be two "Synergy" battery product lines, one produced by >> Hahnel in Germany and the other by Synergy Digital in Brooklyn, NY. >> The Hahnel product appears to be an Eneloop clone while Synergy appears >> to be importing Chinese-clone OEM-replacement camera batteries. > > The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being > licenced more widely nowadays. Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their batteries in a similar manner? What Sanyo did with the eneloop product is not rocket science--the technology for reducing self-discharge in Nickel based batteries is not new. The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity. While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks of AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular. More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/".
From: John Navas on 6 Jul 2010 18:20 rOn Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:25:56 -0700, in <4c339148$0$22110$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net>, SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote: >On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote: >> In message<i0v9cr01i0r(a)news1.newsguy.com>, J. Clarke >> <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> writes >>> >>> There appear to be two "Synergy" battery product lines, one produced by >>> Hahnel in Germany and the other by Synergy Digital in Brooklyn, NY. >>> The Hahnel product appears to be an Eneloop clone while Synergy appears >>> to be importing Chinese-clone OEM-replacement camera batteries. >> >> The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being >> licenced more widely nowadays. > >Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their >batteries in a similar manner? What Sanyo did with the eneloop product >is not rocket science--the technology for reducing self-discharge in >Nickel based batteries is not new. > >The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also >reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars >with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that >they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular >NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity. > >While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the >major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks of >AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular. > >More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/". Your own website. And another area is which you try to pass yourself off as an expert even though you have no real expertise. Why am I not surprised. -- John "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain "A little learning is a dangerous thing." -Alexander Pope "Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." -Benjamin Franklin
From: John Navas on 6 Jul 2010 18:22 On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:37:07 +0000 (UTC), in <i0vf2j$f0e$1(a)reader1.panix.com>, retsuhcs(a)xinap.moc (Mike S.) wrote: >My interest in this type of product is for electronic flash. For instance, >the external flash for my Olympus uses two AA cells. It also takes CR-V3 >primary packs, which deliver much better performance. Unfortunately the >RCR-V3 (which is basically two 14500's in parallel with special circuit to >make it look like two AA's in series) are disappointing. Not only do >reviewers say they last no longer than NiMH, but they can't deliver the >current necessary to charge a flash and end up dying after the first shot. > >I was hopnig the product described here might be better, but it seems they >are not what they were described as being. Why not use a flash that supports an external battery pack? -- John Buying a dSLR doesn't make you a photographer, it makes you a dSLR owner. "The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it." -Ansel Adams
From: Robert Sneddon on 6 Jul 2010 18:17 In message <4c339148$0$22110$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net>, SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> writes >On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote: >> The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being >> licenced more widely nowadays. > >Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their >batteries in a similar manner? AFAIK Sanyo has patents on the methods of making the electrodes and internal support structures that reduce the self-discharge rate significantly. Unless the other manufacturers have arranged licencing then they are open to lawsuits for infringement or they have twiddled their designs sufficiently to avoid the legal problems. I've not heard anything one way or another. > What Sanyo did with the eneloop product is not rocket science--the >technology for reducing self-discharge in Nickel based batteries is not >new. Patent lifespan is 19 years as I recall -- I don't remember seeing low -discharge-rate Ni-chemistry cells on the market before much before 2005. >The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also >reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars >with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that >they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular >NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity. I've used high-capacity Ni-chemistry cells in the past but I noticed that their self-discharge tended to obviate the claimed extra capacity unless I was incredibly diligent about charging them immediately before use. In addition the increased capacity never seemed to survive more than a dozen or two dozen recharge cycles. I used (and still use) simple Ni-battery chargers with limited intelligence which probably didn't help. The charge retention of the Eneloops and their successors are a great convenience and I make up for the more limited capacity by carrying a spare set of similar low-discharge cells along with me. Maybe higher-capacity versions of the 1st-gen technology will appear in the future, who knows? > >While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the >major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks >of AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular. Still better than Li-chemistry cells with their high self-discharge rate, generally limited operating lifespan and their finicky charging and temperature requirements. They also don't store well -- I bought a laptop once, surplus but still sealed in its box and unopened. The brand-new Li battery pack was dead on arrival, failing to take a charge. The battery pack had a date code on the case indicating it had been built only two years before. Conversely low-discharge N-MH cells come precharged and work well even after being stored for over a year as tests have proved, with (as I recall) 70% of measured capacity. As a data point my first set of Eneloops AA cells are at least three years old and still doing sterling service regardless of what kind of cheap Ni-chemistry charger I put them in. I have a plethora of Li-chemistry batteries for my phone, laptop, one of my cameras etc. and they all need their own special charging units since there is no "universal" Li-ion battery pack for such commodity devices. Worst case out in the field I can swap out my AA and AAA Ni-MH batteries for alkalines from a local store, something that is not possible with most units powered by Li-chemistry cells. >More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/". That's your vanity website, yes? -- To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
From: SMS on 6 Jul 2010 19:03
On 06/07/10 3:17 PM, Robert Sneddon wrote: > In message<4c339148$0$22110$742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net>, SMS > <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com>writes >> On 06/07/10 6:21 AM, Robert Sneddon wrote: > >>> The Sanyo Eneloop low-discharge NiMH battery technology is being >>> licenced more widely nowadays. >> >> Is it being licensed or are other companies just building their >> batteries in a similar manner? > >AFAIK Sanyo has patents on the methods of making the electrodes and > internal support structures that reduce the self-discharge rate > significantly. Unless the other manufacturers have arranged licencing > then they are open to lawsuits for infringement or they have twiddled > their designs sufficiently to avoid the legal problems. I've not heard > anything one way or another. > >> What Sanyo did with the eneloop product is not rocket science--the >> technology for reducing self-discharge in Nickel based batteries is not >> new. > >Patent lifespan is 19 years as I recall -- I don't remember seeing low > -discharge-rate Ni-chemistry cells on the market before much before > 2005. > >> The problem is that same design changes that reduce self-discharge also >> reduce capacity, and we were seeing something similar to megapixel wars >> with mAH wars. People just got fed up enough with self-discharge that >> they were willing to go with eneloop AA cells at 2000mAH versus regular >> NiMH AA cells which have up to 50% greater capacity. > >I've used high-capacity Ni-chemistry cells in the past but I noticed > that their self-discharge tended to obviate the claimed extra capacity > unless I was incredibly diligent about charging them immediately before > use. In addition the increased capacity never seemed to survive more > than a dozen or two dozen recharge cycles. I used (and still use) simple > Ni-battery chargers with limited intelligence which probably didn't > help. The charge retention of the Eneloops and their successors are a > great convenience and I make up for the more limited capacity by > carrying a spare set of similar low-discharge cells along with me. Maybe > higher-capacity versions of the 1st-gen technology will appear in the > future, who knows? >> >> While the eneloop, and other low self-discharge cells, solve one of the >> major problems with NiMH cells, they still have most of the drawbacks >> of AA cells in general, and NiMH cells in particular. > >Still better than Li-chemistry cells with their high self-discharge > rate, Li-Ion and Li-Po packs are only a little worse than eneloops in terms of self-discharge. I.e. in 100 days, the eneloop cells will be around 90% and the Li-Ion will be at around 80%. ANiMH would be at around 10%. The lifespan of a Li-Ion pack is a little less in terms of time, but you get far more cycles from each cell. The charging is more complex, but the complexity is taken care of for you in the charger and the protection circuit, temp sensor (and sometimes the micro-controller) in the battery pack. The list of advantages and disadvantages is as follows: 20 Advantages of Li-Ion Batteries over NiMH Batteries 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for newer Hybrio and eneloop NiMH cells, which trade low self-discharge for lower capacity) 2. More charge/discharge cycles 3. Usage pattern and charge regimen is better suited to digital cameras (and other devices where the usual pattern is partial discharge/full charge) 4. Self-Discharge rate is constant during the life of the battery (NiMH batteries steadily increase in self-discharge over the life of the battery) 5. Greater energy density by weight 6. Greater energy density by volume (AA batteries are not practical for sub-compact and ultra-compact cameras because of size, and AAA batteries are not practical because of capacity) 7. Greater number of shots per WH 8. Faster shot to shot times, especially when using flash 9. More convenient to swap and charge than AA cells (no fumbling with multiple cells, and keeping track of which battery is in which set)* 10. Far better cold weather performance 11. Far better performance at high temperatures 12. Devices using Li-Ion batteries are more reliable than devices using AA batteries (unlikely to have a battery door flip open and have the batteries scatter all over)* 13. Li-Ion batteries can be left in devices that are not used for long periods of time 14. Li-Ion batteries have protection circuitry built into the pack and do not rely on the charger for this protection 15. Accurate charge level gauge is included in most Li-Ion powered cameras, but is not possible in NiMH powered cameras (low-battery indicator only) 16. Li-Ion batteries do not suffer from polarity reversal 17. Li-Ion batteries do not suffer from the "dud" cell problem 18. No need to "Battery Match" cells of similar capacity 19. Rechargeable battery and charger come with the camera, versus buying a charger and batteries for an AA powered camera 20. Smaller and lighter chargers * This advantage is over AA batteries in general, not specifically NiMH AA batteries. The advantage applies to AA batteries of other types as well (Alkaline, Lithium, etc.). 8 Advantages of NiMH Batteries over Li-Ion Batteries 1. Li-Ion packs are proprietary, you can't substitute disposable AA cells if your battery goes dead in the middle of nowhere, and you have no spare battery, and no AC or DC power for charging* 2. Longer shelf life* 3. Faster charging (though high-rate charging significantly reduces battery life) 4. AA cells will always be available, while less popular Li-Ion packs may be discontinued* 5. Multiple devices that use AA or AAA cells can share batteries and chargers (though there are Li-Ion chargers that can charge many different battery types by the use of adapter plates)* 6. NiMH AA cells can be charged from a 5 volt USB port, while larger Li-Ion packs (7.4V) cannot. 7. You can buy NiMH batteries at a good price from stores like Wal-Mart and Fry's but for Li-Ion you must order the battery packs from an on-line retailer that specializes in batteries in order to obtain good quality packs at good prices. 8. Hot Shoe Flash and Camera Can Use the Same Type of Battery generally limited operating lifespan and their finicky charging > and temperature requirements. They also don't store well -- I bought a > laptop once, surplus but still sealed in its box and unopened. The > brand-new Li battery pack was dead on arrival, failing to take a charge. > The battery pack had a date code on the case indicating it had been > built only two years before. Two years of unused storage is an eternity for a Li-Ion battery, and also for a NiMH battery. I have some non eneloop NiMH cells that I bought and was not religious about keeping charged. I tried to use them last month. They are all now bad. They were in storage for about two years. My fault. I have an AA trickle charger that I built and I didn't have the batteries on it. >> More information is available at "http://batterydata.com/". > >That's your vanity website, yes? No. Every statement on that site has been fact-checked nine ways to Sunday. Early-on there were a few corrections that I made after people e-mailed me, but no one has found any errors in the site for more than a year. Some of the costs may have changed a bit, but that's about it. |