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From: Transfer Principle on 16 Jun 2010 21:16
On Jun 16, 12:21 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 11:25 pm, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote:
> > In the symmetric twin paradox both twins leave Earth,
> > setting out in opposite directions and returning to Earth at the same
> > time.
> Thanks, yours truly has brought this up earlier.  <shrug>

I usually don't post in these anti-Einstein threads,
especially as they are crossposted to sci.math as well
as the physics newsgroups.

Still, I admit that I've once thought about this
"symmetric twin paradox." I also once asked myself
that if the universe is closed, the twins travelling
in opposite directions might end up meeting at the
other side of the universe -- then which twin would
be older? (But then I always waved this off by saying,
therefore, the universe _isn't_ closed...)

Note that my posting in this thread does _not_ mean
that I necessarily oppose Einstein, any more than
my posting in one of AP's Atom Totality threads
means that I am necessarily an Atom Totalitarian.
From: Peter Webb on 16 Jun 2010 21:19

GPS will function without any GR effect applied if indeed exists. You
can google the previous few posts by yours truly to understand how GPS
works. <shrug>

________________________________
That's funny. Are you claiming that the GPS system does NOT compensate for
relativistic effects, and that the builders and designers of the system are
lying about the mathematics they use?




From: Peter Webb on 16 Jun 2010 21:25

"Koobee Wublee" <koobee.wublee(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:274f0c41-1ea7-486d-9e87-ab3a2e5b1ff3(a)6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 16, 10:12 am, hagman <goo...(a)von-eitzen.de> wrote:
> On 16 Jun., 09:21, Koobee Wublee wrote:

> > Let me chime in. There have been no experiments showing that
> > accelerating does indeed exhibit any time dilation. So, the classical
> > resolution as proposed by Einstein the nitwit, the plagiarist, and the
> > liar is totally bullshit in the first place. <shrug>
>
> Of course, such experiments have been made with fast-moving atomic
> clocks, say..

No experiments can support the existence of a paradox. In fact, there
are not a single experiment that shows so. <shrug>

______________________________
Its not a "paradox" in the sense that it predicts conflicting outcomes, its
just a non-intuitive result, which merely seems paradoxical to people with
little or no knowledge of physics (such as your good self). When you
understand it, there is nothing paradoxical about it at all. And
relativistic time dilation is experimentally tested every day in countless
laboratories around the world, and they all quite clearly demonstrate it
happens.

Have you got a single experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it does
not occur?

No?

Thought so.


From: colp on 16 Jun 2010 22:10
On Jun 17, 1:25 pm, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:

> Have you got a single experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it does
> not occur?

The symmetric twin thought experiment (as described in the OP) is such
an experiment.

In the experiment SR predicts that the twins will both be younger than
each other when they return to Earth, which is of course impossible.

For the paradox to be resolved, each twin must observe the same amount
of time compression of the other as time dilation, since the symmetry
of the experiment demands that both twins are the same age when they
return to Earth.

Some solutions proposed by the relativists are:

1. Only consider one frame of reference, since SR fails when moving
between inertial frames.
2. Ignore the paradox. Draw some timelines and say that everything is
O.K.
3. Claim that the time dilation will be compensated for by
acceleration, even though there is no experimental support for time
compression arising from acceleration.
4. Feet stamping and name calling.
From: spudnik on 16 Jun 2010 22:23
there was ne'er a twin paradox, other than a tiny strawman or
a pop-science effigy. 'twould be simpler to imagine the smart twin,
going relativisitcly to some place ... wait ... then
the other twin goes to place at the same acceleration, or
less, or greater ... it's gedanken, for now, because
we certainly don't have a space program in the USA
(esp. not with cap&trade (search for CBOE's new IPO)).

thus&so:
as far as I know, there are two predominating criteria for Dark Stuff:
a)
the Big Bang interpretation of the redshifts; and b)
only looking at gravity w.r.t. galactic rotation (or
the Department of Einsteinmania, The Musical Dept. .-)

thus&so:
what are your figures on volcanic output -- do they produce CFCs?...
well,
there was a display in the meteorology dept. at UCLA about the "holes
in the ozonosphere," and the main/digest poster had a distinctive and
large cartoon of a volcano, but no figures. (the other, seldom-shown
feature
was of the data-hole of the pre- spring equinox pole .-)
OK, so; why would they *not* produce CFCs, and
what in any case are the known measurments?
http://www.geog.ucla.edu/people/faculty.php?lid=500&display_one=1&mod...

thus&so:
'70s or '80s NSF meeting; Oliver "Buck" Revell (later unindicted co-
conspirator in GHWB's Iran-contra) ; Tree War Assembly?

thus&so:
didn't notice any reply to the alleged story,
"when he was an Illinois senator in 2000, he started a
foundation ..."
don't you guys realize, that cap&trade is the Last Bail Out
of Wall Street and the City of London (financial district/
gated community/successor to the Br.E.India Co.) ??

definitively, it is not a tax, contra the WSUrinal....
have a nice night and, remember,
if ultralight HDPE bags are outlawed,
only outlaws & babysmotherers will have ultralight HDPE bags!

Obama Creates a British Company !?!...
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Climate_swindle.pdf

thus&so:
the models are quite believeable, even if
they're fundamentally not even wrongsville;
i.e. when Svente Ahrrenius didn't win a Nobel prize
for his coinage of "glass house gasses,"
no-one bothered to model a glass house
*at some lattitude not zero*.... also,
look at George Simpson's table-top model of glaciation.
arctic ice is floating & evanescent & cannot change sea-level;
there are more polar bears than forty years ago --
bears like gahbage in Hefty HDPE take-out bags!
> "If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation,
> its mass diminishes by L/c2" -- dimensional analysis, please!

thus&so:
they think that photons are 0-d rocks o'light with no mass nor
momentum.
of course, there is nothing odd about the "symmetric twins," and
there was ne'er any paradox; even less than with Russell's
illiterate,
tenseless ones -- I's just sayin', all Cretins be liars & me, three,
now!
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008arXiv0804.2008N
> "We introduce a symmetric twin paradox whose solution can not be found
> within the currently accepted provinces of the STR.

thus&so:
there is no paradox, if you accept that there is no phenomenon,
including sub-atomic angular momenta, "goes" faster than light. or,
are you going to argue Ole Roemer's dyscovery of the "retardation"
of light, way back, when ever -- against that?
their clocks'll be in synch at the rendezvous; so,
you've described a Twins Miming Each Other "experiment,"
a null perfection -- unlike M&M's results & their refinements.
just get rid of the useless notion of Minkowski's phase-space,
and
you won't have to think so God-am hard about it.

--Stop BP's Waxman's arbitrageurs' CAP&TRADE Last Bail-out
of Wall St., the City of London, George Soros et al ad vomitorium!
http://larouchepub.com

--Fermat's next theorem!
http://wlym.com

thus&so:
so that an increase in calving could be either a)
just increased melting & an actual decrease of the icesheet; b)
increased snowfall. however, there was no evidence
of the former, when I asked about it at a conference
on satellite telemetry at UCLA (knew two of the profs
on the panel, one saying, "no change seen, as yet" .-)

thus&so:
a popular impression is that oilcos are against Kyoto and
other cap&trade schemes, like Waxman's '91 bill; well, hm.
urban heat islands are said to be accounted-for by the IPCC,
in some kind of a fudge-factor; interesting, if true, but
how accurate is it?

thus&so:
the Milankovitch orbital periods are probably just synchronizing,
not causative; that is, only during the glacial epochs, such as
the present Quaternary Period (last two million years or so .-)

Dear Editor;
It is apparent from the City ordinance, proposed to ban high-density
polyethylene (HDPE) bags -- excepting take-out at restaurants --
that it'll be a state-wide eco-tax. The "green fee" slated is
twenty-
five cents for a paper bag from the retailer, grocer or farmer at the
market. This is unfortunate for two reasons, although, as I stated a
year ago in Council, when it first came-up, the super-light-weight,
super-inexpensive bags (much less than the Staff Report figure)
are so good at what they do, before they inevitably break-up and
decompose (according to the apocrypha & studies of Heal the Bay
etc., HDPEbagsR4ever) that coastal cities may justify a ban,
to prevent stormdrain blockages.

Firstly, just like with "hemp for haemarrhoids," it is not a panacea
or much of an economic stop-gap, if only because "only criminals &
baby-smotherers will have HDPE bags." Really, there are plenty of
natural plastics; "plastic" is really an adjective, as in the plastic
arts! Note also that even plant-derived plastic bags will be banned,
although they are said to biodegrade.

Secondly, a very small Carbon Tax would be much more realistic than
Waxman's CO2 cap & trade nostrum, of letting the abitrageurs and
daytraders raise the price of our energy as much as they can
in the "free market" -- with no provision whatever for government
revenue (contrary to the slogan of "cap & tax" used by Tea Partiers,
"Republicans," and the WSUrinal).

As with the much-greater amount of materiel & energy that is required
for the paper bags, we might do better to ban *low* density
polypropolene bags at department & boutique stores, which are many
times heavier than the HDPE bags. It is surprising that a fifth of
the HDPE bags are recycled, considerng that a) they're only good for
garbage, if they get dirty, and b) they are quite often re-used;
recycling them is an unsanitary joke, though composting might work.

The retailers would get ten of the 25 cents, quite
an incentive for any overhead. However, has anyone seen any analysis
on the energy requirements for the "reusable" replacement, and their
importation?... How about a surcharge on the super-light HDPE bags?
--Sincerely, Brian H.

--Stop BP's/Waxman's arbitragueur-daytripper's delight,
cap&trade (Captain Tax in the feeble minds of Tea Partiers,
"'republicans' R us," and the WSUrinal (and
the latter just l o v e Waxman's '91 cap&trade bill !-))
http://wlym.com
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Prev: beautiful equation
Next: Quantum Gravity 399.1: France finds Macroscopic-Microscopic Duality with Deceleration to Acceleration Transition Analogous to Elliptic Flow of Strong Interaction Collisions and to Compression followed by Relaxation Phase of Collision