Type-ins
in [General Programming]
|
Prev: UML Survey
Next: ANN: Seed7 Release 2010-02-21
From: Pascal J. Bourguignon on 22 Feb 2010 04:29 "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: > "Robbo" <robbo_blah(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:hlpidn$g1u$2(a)news.eternal-september.org... >> >>> Nowadays, there are also more graphical interactive programming systems, >>> such as Alice (alice.org), >>> Etoys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etoys_(programming_language), >>> Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu). >>> >> Thanks I will check them out and see what they are like > [...] > I guess left unanswered here is the approximate age and mental maturity of > the kids. > if they can already do stuff like reading, writing, math, ... may as well > just give them an actual language... > > for example, Java and Eclipse could be worth looking at I think... > > how to make it interesting could be an issue though... In that case I would advise scheme, and books such as "The Little Schemer" serie; later "How To Design Programs", and eventually "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs". > [...] > > but, alas, it all starts seeming fairly pointless... > > what can one do that in the end will have actually have been worth doing?... Given your skills, I would advise you to study scheme and Common Lisp. (http://cliki.net, http://schemers.org). Read: "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs", "Lisp In Small Pieces", "Essentials of Programming Languages", and "G�del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid". You could help working on real projects, such as the JIT compiler in clisp (http://clisp.cons.org). SICP = Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ HTDP = How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/ CA = Concrete Abstractions -- An Introduction to Computer Science Using Scheme http://www.gustavus.edu/+max/concrete-abstractions.html LISP = "Lisp in Small Pieces" http://www-spi.lip6.fr/~queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. The Scheme Programming Language Third Edition by R. Kent Dybvig http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/ EOPL = Essentials of Programming Languages, 3rd ed. Daniel P. Friedman and Mitchell Wand ISBN: 978-0-262-06279-4 http://MITPress.MIT.Edu/0262062798/ http://WWW.EoPL3.Com/ Essentials of Programming Languages, 2nd ed. Daniel P. Friedman, Mitchell Wand, Christopher T. Haynes MIT Press, ISBN 0-262-06217 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/eopl/ ONLISP = Paul Graham has made those available on his website: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html Or the HTML version (which I find more pleasant to read): http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp.html Also available in a compressed archive: http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp.tar.gz CPTT = "Compiler Principles Techniques and Tools", Aho et al. http://dragonbook.stanford.edu/ GEB = "G�del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" Douglas Hofstadter -- __Pascal Bourguignon__
From: BGB / cr88192 on 22 Feb 2010 07:29 "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb(a)informatimago.com> wrote in message news:874ol97h4p.fsf(a)galatea.lan.informatimago.com... > "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: > >> "Robbo" <robbo_blah(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:hlpidn$g1u$2(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>> >>>> Nowadays, there are also more graphical interactive programming >>>> systems, >>>> such as Alice (alice.org), >>>> Etoys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etoys_(programming_language), >>>> Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu). >>>> >>> Thanks I will check them out and see what they are like >> [...] >> I guess left unanswered here is the approximate age and mental maturity >> of >> the kids. >> if they can already do stuff like reading, writing, math, ... may as well >> just give them an actual language... >> >> for example, Java and Eclipse could be worth looking at I think... >> >> how to make it interesting could be an issue though... > > In that case I would advise scheme, and books such as "The Little > Schemer" serie; later "How To Design Programs", and eventually > "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs". > well, it could work, as a teaching tool at least... > > >> [...] >> >> but, alas, it all starts seeming fairly pointless... >> >> what can one do that in the end will have actually have been worth >> doing?... > > Given your skills, I would advise you to study scheme and Common > Lisp. (http://cliki.net, http://schemers.org). > Read: "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs", "Lisp In Small > Pieces", "Essentials of Programming Languages", and "G�del, Escher, > Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid". You could help working on real > projects, such as the JIT compiler in clisp (http://clisp.cons.org). > > I have used both before... the problem though is that neither are commonly used or "accepted" languages in the same sense as C, C++, Java, C#, ... how does one justify that they use them?... why should it matter?... .... admittedly though, along with Forth/PostScript, both can work acceptably as the basis for the design of a compiler IL. > > > > SICP = Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs > http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html > http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ > > http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages > http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ > http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ > partly watched videos before, they were interesting... > > HTDP = How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and > Programming > http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/ > > CA = Concrete Abstractions -- An Introduction to Computer Science > Using Scheme > http://www.gustavus.edu/+max/concrete-abstractions.html > > LISP = "Lisp in Small Pieces" > http://www-spi.lip6.fr/~queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html > This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, > their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up > in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and > 2 compilers. > > The Scheme Programming Language Third Edition by R. Kent Dybvig > http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/ > > EOPL = Essentials of Programming Languages, 3rd ed. > Daniel P. Friedman and Mitchell Wand > ISBN: 978-0-262-06279-4 > http://MITPress.MIT.Edu/0262062798/ > http://WWW.EoPL3.Com/ > > Essentials of Programming Languages, 2nd ed. > Daniel P. Friedman, Mitchell Wand, Christopher T. Haynes > MIT Press, ISBN 0-262-06217 > http://www.cs.indiana.edu/eopl/ > > > ONLISP = Paul Graham has made those available on his website: > http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html > Or the HTML version (which I find more pleasant to read): > http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp.html > Also available in a compressed archive: > http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp.tar.gz > > > CPTT = "Compiler Principles Techniques and Tools", > Aho et al. http://dragonbook.stanford.edu/ > > > GEB = "G�del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" > Douglas Hofstadter > > yep. may look more into this later... > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Pascal J. Bourguignon on 22 Feb 2010 11:04 "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: > the problem though is that neither are commonly used or "accepted" languages > in the same sense as C, C++, Java, C#, ... > > how does one justify that they use them?... > why should it matter?... How do you justify using English? It is not commonly used or "accepted" a language, in the same sense as Chinese or Spanish... -- __Pascal Bourguignon__
From: BGB / cr88192 on 22 Feb 2010 22:21 "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb(a)informatimago.com> wrote in message news:87d3zx5kar.fsf(a)galatea.lan.informatimago.com... > "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: > >> the problem though is that neither are commonly used or "accepted" >> languages >> in the same sense as C, C++, Java, C#, ... >> >> how does one justify that they use them?... >> why should it matter?... > > How do you justify using English? It is not commonly used or > "accepted" a language, in the same sense as Chinese or Spanish... > it is in the US, and commonly understood in most of the rest of the world... it is also within the top 10... also, a person doesn't have nearly the same level of free choice WRT natural language, since even if they could use a different language, no one in their immediate area would understand them, and they would be alone in having tried to do so... for example, in the US, people can look to the government, the educational system, to companies like Microsoft, Oracle, AOL-Time-Warner, ... and have a fairly solid justification for being an English-speaker... although not necessarily so positive can be said for matters of ethnicity, .... but even then one may not find it without merit, and hell, one can't change ones' own existence (regardless of ones' own or others' opinions WRT ones' heritage, better than hiding off in some corner somewhere terrified that history will repeat itself or that ones' enemies will prevail...). well, anyways, don't get me wrong. I don't personally have anything against Scheme... or such... > > -- > __Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Pascal J. Bourguignon on 23 Feb 2010 05:31
"BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: > "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb(a)informatimago.com> wrote in message > news:87d3zx5kar.fsf(a)galatea.lan.informatimago.com... >> "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192(a)hotmail.com> writes: >> >>> the problem though is that neither are commonly used or "accepted" >>> languages >>> in the same sense as C, C++, Java, C#, ... >>> >>> how does one justify that they use them?... >>> why should it matter?... >> >> How do you justify using English? It is not commonly used or >> "accepted" a language, in the same sense as Chinese or Spanish... >> > > it is in the US, and commonly understood in most of the rest of the world... > it is also within the top 10... > > also, a person doesn't have nearly the same level of free choice WRT natural > language, since even if they could use a different language, no one in their > immediate area would understand them, and they would be alone in having > tried to do so... > > for example, in the US, people can look to the government, the educational > system, to companies like Microsoft, Oracle, AOL-Time-Warner, ... and have a > fairly solid justification for being an English-speaker... > > > although not necessarily so positive can be said for matters of ethnicity, > ... but even then one may not find it without merit, and hell, one can't > change ones' own existence (regardless of ones' own or others' opinions WRT > ones' heritage, better than hiding off in some corner somewhere terrified > that history will repeat itself or that ones' enemies will prevail...). > > > well, anyways, don't get me wrong. > I don't personally have anything against Scheme... > > or such... It would have been funnier if you had impersonated Wong Tin from Beijin, or just taken a more global standpoint ;-) Even in the USA, English is disappearing in favor of Spanish (which is why I mentionned it), so your justification is not only localized in space, but also in time. Soon enough it'll be harder to justify. I'm told that in South California it's already hard enough. Anyways, back to programming languages, if you don't care that they speak Chinese in Beijin, why should you care they use C, C++, Java or C# at Microsoft or AOL-Time-Warner? Are you there in the job market, or are you here to learn something and having fun with programming? -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ |