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From: randyhyde on 22 May 2007 12:42 On May 22, 12:11 am, Betov <b...(a)free.fr> wrote: > > > I wouldn't expect a beginner to understand those > > lessons if they haven't first read a primer ( maybe B_U_Asm fits this > > bill?? ) explaining necessary foundational material. There are many > > things that "we" take for granted but a "beginner" isn't going to > > know. > > Yes, this is an evident problem, but there is even _worse_ than this. This is why having the material organized properly, from beginning steps to advanced information, is important. You can't throw out a bunch of different concepts as you've done in your tutorials and expect them to make sense. > > There seem to be something "magic" with the confusion state of a true > beginner facing its first lesson: They sometimes report that, at their > first contact, they did not understood a thing. Nevertheless, after a > bit of time, and insistence, they finaly get into. There is nothing "magic" about the fact that if someone puts enough time into a subject they will eventually learn it. The trick is to teach the student the information as quickly and efficiently as possible. If you're relying on the perserverance of the person to get past your tutorials and figure the material out, you're simply admitting that your tutorials are not very good and could be improved tremendously. > > Now, the really strange thing, is that, when i ask them to _report_ > about the very first difficulties they have encounted, they are > _regulary_ unable to understand, by themselves, _what_ was the > problem, for them... A very strange psycho-effect... There is nothing "magic" about this at all. Anyone who has taught an introductory programming course knows exactly what the problem is: beginners don't have the background knowledge to even formulate the questions. This is why it's important to teach very basic material at the beginning of the lessons rather than throwing out all kinds of complex instructions as you've done in your first tutorial. It's why it's important to teach the material in a linear fashion -- from basic to complex concepts. It's why it's important to cover all the terms and concepts you employ in your examples, before you use those concepts in examples. > Probably like > if, when facing something entirely new, the brain was not really > working... I will have to ask my wife (spycho-teacher), if such > a problem has already been subject of some psycho study... If what > i am suspecting is true, there will never be any real solution to > this problem, but to recommend beginners to _insist_... What a cop-out. You can't figure out how to teach the information to beginners, so you blame their inability to understand your tutorials on them. > > Back to the topic: Yes, i have been pointing to the pre-requises, > and to the fact that there may be as many way, for learning, as > beginners. So, i have simply added a line, at top of Lesson_1, > for directing to: B_U_Asm ---> [Beginner's Steps]... But this begs the question: "What purpose do the tutorials serve if they get their knowledge from B_U_ASM?" > where a > beginner can read various stuffs, in the order he wants to. And then what? What purpose do your tutorials serve at that point? > After all, we ignore completely what a given beginners already > knows and does not. Therefore, explaining everything, in the > linear order, is not the way either, because reading already > known things is boring, They can skim over the stuff they already know. What they can't do is fill in the holes that you've left in your tutorials of information they *don't* know. > and can have no effect on the learning > curse, but to push the brain to "sleep state" and to miss important > details. What is important to you might not be important to someone else, just keep that in mind. It has been amusing, over the past 15 years or so, to listen to people talk about how assembly language ought to be taught around here and in other assembly related forums. It's pretty clear that most people who have strong opinions about how the subject ought to be taught have never stood in front of a class of beginning assembly language students. These people (yourself included, Rene) seem to think that all one needs to do is point people in the direction of the CPU manuals, or have them run an automated demo program, and they'll learn assembly language from this. While it is, perhaps, possible for some people to learn assembly language in this manner, it certainly isn't an efficient use of their time to learn assembly this way. I know. I used to think like many people around here. Most of those thoughts went right out the door when I taught my first University- level assembly language course (I had taught "assembly" courses at local computer stores prior to that, but those courses tend to attract the A+ students and there is *nothing* you can do to prevent those types of people from learning the subject). hLater, Randy Hyde
From: Betov on 22 May 2007 13:22 "rhyde(a)cs.ucr.edu" <rhyde(a)cs.ucr.edu> �crivait news:1179842811.964259.271820(a)x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > Anyone can learn a subject if they devote enough time to it. Brilliant > tutorials are the ones that make efficient use of the student's time > and help them learn the subject as quickly and efficiently as > possible. That observation over many years is what led to the > development of HLA, for example. :]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Thanks, Master Pdf. :) Betov. < http://rosasm.org >
From: Betov on 22 May 2007 13:27 "randyhyde(a)earthlink.net" <randyhyde(a)earthlink.net> �crivait news:1179852145.476063.24540(a)z24g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > [...] Take care, clown, it seems that you becoming used to double shots posts... An effect of selinity, perhaps... Yes, senility, from an IQ under 80, must be a terrible thing... :) Betov. < http://rosasm.org >
From: Jim Carlock on 23 May 2007 11:09 "Evenbit" wrote: : TiddlyWiki (personal web notebook) http://www.tiddlywiki.com/ : <snip>...</snip> : Getting Things Done (GTDTiddlyWiki) {old, NLS}http://shared.snapgrid.com/ : : TiddlyWiki-SE http://15black.bluedepot.com/twtests/tiddlywikise.htm : : News Smashup http://newshutch.com/ There's also... MediaWiki (server-side MySQL, no fancy js flights): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki Download Page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Download -- Jim Carlock Post replies to the group.
From: Evenbit on 23 May 2007 15:41
On May 23, 11:09 am, "Jim Carlock" <anonym...(a)127.0.0.1> wrote: > > There's also... MediaWiki (server-side MySQL, no fancy js flights):http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki > > Download Page:http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Download Awk!! You wanna take all the fun out of the party?? ;) The Cons of _server-side_ solutions: o Reader must be online to navigate the contents. o Forced to depend on some sort of server service. o Vulnerability to "SQL injection" type exploits (remember the attack on Hutch's pitiful excuse for a board?) o etc... Besides, it has already been done: http://www.asmcommunity.net/board/index.php?action=wiki Interesting to note Crime & Company's approach to the 'numbering systems' discussion includes a "C" language source example. So you see, Randy isn't the only one encouraging students to learn a HLL "while" they are also learning assembly. ;-) I produced an odometer.s -- ------------------------------------ .file "odometer.c" .section .rodata ..LC0: .string "%05d\r" .text ..globl main .type main, @function main: pushl %ebp movl %esp, %ebp subl $24, %esp andl $-16, %esp movl $0, %eax addl $15, %eax addl $15, %eax shrl $4, %eax sall $4, %eax subl %eax, %esp movl $9985, -4(%ebp) jmp .L2 ..L3: movl -4(%ebp), %eax movl %eax, 4(%esp) movl $.LC0, (%esp) call printf movl stdout, %eax movl %eax, (%esp) call fflush movl $1, (%esp) call sleep addl $1, -4(%ebp) ..L2: cmpl $10000, -4(%ebp) jle .L3 movl $0, %eax leave ret .size main, .-main .ident "GCC: (GNU) 4.0.3 (Ubuntu 4.0.3-1ubuntu5)" .section .note.GNU-stack,"",@progbits -------------------------- I do not believe I can improve upon that very much by writing it from scratch. Nathan. |