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From: news on 10 Mar 2010 13:41
On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31(a)k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
>> turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
>> "there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
>> up brake system . . ."
>>
>> The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.
>>
>>
>> Bret Cahill
>
>
>To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
>It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
>into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
>replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
>anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!
>
>But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
>examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
>have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
>accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
>and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
>third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
>documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
>part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
>they are more open.
>
>The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
>as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
>under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
>wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
>something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.
>

Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

John
From: Paul E. Schoen on 10 Mar 2010 16:59

<news(a)jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:bbpfp5laa31oslt80qrnoqbuuarmp2ama9(a)4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc(a)yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.
>
> 1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
> the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
> overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
> moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
> of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?
>
> 2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
> ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
> "sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
> car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
> acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
> Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.
>
> At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
> and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
> returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
> which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
> X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Paul

From: Jon on 10 Mar 2010 18:00

"Paul E. Schoen" <paul(a)pstech-inc.com> wrote in message
news:_CUln.19520$bx3.10719(a)newsfe13.iad...
<snip>
> Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of unintended
> acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear. I've always
> had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an automatic.
<snip>

Funny you should say that Paul, that is exactly me! I have always driven
a manual transmission and likely always will.

My hand tries to grab air and my foot instinctively tries for the missing
clutch
when I drive someone else's automatic transmission equipped vehicle.

My 2007 Xterra has an electronic throttle but, as you said, I'd simply take
it out of gear if it ever accelerated unintentionally.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news(a)netfront.net ---
From: news on 10 Mar 2010 20:31
On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:59:14 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"
<paul(a)pstech-inc.com> wrote:

>
><news(a)jecarter.us> wrote in message
>news:bbpfp5laa31oslt80qrnoqbuuarmp2ama9(a)4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc(a)yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.
>>
>> 1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
>> the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
>> overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
>> moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
>> of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?
>>
>> 2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
>> ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
>> "sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
>> car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
>> acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
>> Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.
>>
>> At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
>> and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
>> returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
>> which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
>> X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)
>
>It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
>yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
>electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
>this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
>would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
>speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
>clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
>sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.
>
>Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
>accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
>perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
>not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
>engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
>unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
>I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
>automatic.
>
>It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
>have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
>power assist, but always overridable manually.
>
>My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
>steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
>and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
>problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
>steering problems.
>
>Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
>became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
>the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
>have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!
>
>And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
>and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
>when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
>pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
>in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
>again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
>it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.
>
>I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
>need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
>were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!
>
>Paul

Buying a vehicle with an automatic transmission was a concession to
age and arthritis (the hardware holding my back together came later).
Had I been able to determine which (if any) new vehicles had
mechanical linkage from the gas pedal to the throttle, that feature
would likely have been a major factor in choosing the new vehicle.

My previous vehicle was a 1989 Nissan pickup (4 cyl, 5 speed manual),
which I sold when it was 18 years old and my wife refused to ride in
it***. In that vehicle, the electronics were limited to the ignition
and radio - plus the cruise control unit I added. The cruise control
dropped out immediately when you pressed the brake pedal - and a
*real* on/off switch was on the control pad.

*** conversation follows:
"You need a new truck."
"Yes, dear".

John
From: Michael Robinson on 12 Mar 2010 12:56

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn8jnh$rsp$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31(a)k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
>> turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
>> "there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
>> up brake system . . ."
>>
>> The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.
>>
>>
>> Bret Cahill
>
>
> To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system
> problem.
> It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
> into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
> replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
> anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!
>
> But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
> examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders.
> They
> have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats
> and
> accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
> and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
> third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
> documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on
> their
> part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
> they are more open.
>
> The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them
> just
> as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it
> except
> under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
> wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
> something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.
>

You've pretty much put my thoughts on this into words.

I've noticed some op-eds and such pointing up the known problem of driver
error (i.e., panic and press harder on accelerator thinking it's the brake
pedal).

But here we have a guy standing on the brake with both feet and pulling the
e-brake too. Something's obviously seriously wrong with the car.

Toyota has a serious mental block on this. Floor mats! How stupid can you
get. Meanwhile, people die.

About 15 years ago I witnessed a car accelerate out of control in New York
City, coming up Lafayette Street, cross Astor Place, and slam into a
construction scaffold. The car was like a missile, the engine was
absolutely screaming. One pedestrian that didn't get hit by the car was
seriously injured just from standing NEAR the point of impact. I don't know
if the people in the car even survived. This stuff is no joke.

If we don't hold the Toyota people's feet to the fire, shame on us.


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