Wavelength & Frequency experiments for SR
in [Relativity]
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From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 30 Dec 2007 02:57 On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:52:19 -0600, Tom Roberts <tjroberts137(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: >David wrote: >> I've been trying to find experimental verification that c is constant >> by looking for experiments where wavelength and frequency are measured >> independently of each other and results from moving sources are >> compared to the results from stationary sources - like the wavelength >> of light with frequency f (as measured in a rest frame) from a moving >> star compared to the wavelength of light with the same frequency f >> created by a source in the rest frame. But I wasn't able to find any >> experiment where wavelength and frequency are measured independently >> to confirm that their product is a constant. > >Consider the operation of a standard lab He-Ne laser. The 3S->2P >transition of neon is Doppler broadened to about 1.5 GHz [#]. The >wavelength is 632.8 nm, and for mirrors 30 cm apart there are about 1 >million wavelengths between the mirrors, with spacing between >longitudinal modes of 400-500 MHz. So typically 3 or 4 longitudinal >modes of the mirrors overlap the Doppler-broadened linewith of the >lasing transition in Ne. > > [#] I don't have a reference for the intrinsic linewidth > of this transition, but the observed 1.5 GHz Doppler- > broadened width is consistent with the thermal computation > given in _Fundamentals_of_Light_Sources_and_Lasers_, by > Mark Csele. So the intrinsic width is considerably smaller > than the Doppler broadening, and that is all that matters here. > >The frequency and wavelength separations of the different longitudinal >modes are fully consistent with the speed of light being constant. This >implies that for moving Ne atoms, the product of frequency times >wavelength for the lasing transition does indeed equal c. This is >optical spectroscopy, and these values are known quite accurately. Oh yeh! > >This example also refutes Henri Wilson's "BaTh", which claims that the >wavelength of light emitted from a source is the same in all inertial >frames -- for the Doppler-broadened lasing transition to excite multiple >longitudinal modes in the mirrors its wavelength MUST vary with speed. Photon wavelength DOES change during a photon acceleration...that's part of my BaTh. >Note that without the Doppler broadening of the lasing transition, He-Ne >lasers would be vastly more difficult to set up and get working. You haven't described the experiment in much detail so I can't comment. >Tom Roberts Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Pentcho Valev on 30 Dec 2007 03:15 On Dec 30, 5:52 am, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in sci.physics.relativity: > David wrote: > > I've been trying to find experimental verification that c is constant > > by looking for experiments where wavelength and frequency are measured > > independently of each other and results from moving sources are > > compared to the results from stationary sources - like the wavelength > > of light with frequency f (as measured in a rest frame) from a moving > > star compared to the wavelength of light with the same frequency f > > created by a source in the rest frame. But I wasn't able to find any > > experiment where wavelength and frequency are measured independently > > to confirm that their product is a constant. > > Consider the operation of a standard lab He-Ne laser. The 3S->2P > transition of neon is Doppler broadened to about 1.5 GHz [#]. The > wavelength is 632.8 nm, and for mirrors 30 cm apart there are about 1 > million wavelengths between the mirrors, with spacing between > longitudinal modes of 400-500 MHz. So typically 3 or 4 longitudinal > modes of the mirrors overlap the Doppler-broadened linewith of the > lasing transition in Ne. > > [#] I don't have a reference for the intrinsic linewidth > of this transition, but the observed 1.5 GHz Doppler- > broadened width is consistent with the thermal computation > given in _Fundamentals_of_Light_Sources_and_Lasers_, by > Mark Csele. So the intrinsic width is considerably smaller > than the Doppler broadening, and that is all that matters here. > > The frequency and wavelength separations of the different longitudinal > modes are fully consistent with the speed of light being constant. This > implies that for moving Ne atoms, the product of frequency times > wavelength for the lasing transition does indeed equal c. This is > optical spectroscopy, and these values are known quite accurately. > > This example also refutes Henri Wilson's "BaTh", which claims that the > wavelength of light emitted from a source is the same in all inertial > frames -- for the Doppler-broadened lasing transition to excite multiple > longitudinal modes in the mirrors its wavelength MUST vary with speed. > > Note that without the Doppler broadening of the lasing transition, He-Ne > lasers would be vastly more difficult to set up and get working. > > Tom Roberts Bravo Roberts bravo Tom bravo Albert Einstein of our generation (Hawking is no longer the Albert Einstein of our generation)! At last you have found the camouflage you needed so badly! Two years ago, when we discussed an analogous problem, you still knew nothing of wavelength measurements; you only knew that "on earth the speed of light is c": http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/d0701800ef02911d? Tom Roberts, Sep 25, 2005: "None of the above measured wavelength directly. But we do know that on earth the speed of light is c, and in the GPS the speed of light is c between satellite and ground." Roberts Roberts some day even your zombies will ask the fatal questions: "Oh Divine Master Roberts, why don't you explain both the Doppler effect and the gravitational redshift in terms of the textbook formula: frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) Since the frequency shifts, oh Divine Master, isn't it reasonable to assume that the speed of light shifts with the frequency, as Divine Albert did in 1911? If we assume that the speed of light remains constant and it is the wavelength that shifts with the frequency, will that assumption have implications that are too silly, oh Divine Master Roberts?" Pentcho Valev pvalev(a)yahoo.com
From: Jeckyl on 30 Dec 2007 03:51 "Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message news:t8jen3tr1pekf6smi06777eljmok1t45gh(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:52:19 -0600, Tom Roberts > <tjroberts137(a)sbcglobal.net> > wrote: > >>David wrote: >>> I've been trying to find experimental verification that c is constant >>> by looking for experiments where wavelength and frequency are measured >>> independently of each other and results from moving sources are >>> compared to the results from stationary sources - like the wavelength >>> of light with frequency f (as measured in a rest frame) from a moving >>> star compared to the wavelength of light with the same frequency f >>> created by a source in the rest frame. But I wasn't able to find any >>> experiment where wavelength and frequency are measured independently >>> to confirm that their product is a constant. >> >>Consider the operation of a standard lab He-Ne laser. The 3S->2P >>transition of neon is Doppler broadened to about 1.5 GHz [#]. The >>wavelength is 632.8 nm, and for mirrors 30 cm apart there are about 1 >>million wavelengths between the mirrors, with spacing between >>longitudinal modes of 400-500 MHz. So typically 3 or 4 longitudinal >>modes of the mirrors overlap the Doppler-broadened linewith of the >>lasing transition in Ne. >> >> [#] I don't have a reference for the intrinsic linewidth >> of this transition, but the observed 1.5 GHz Doppler- >> broadened width is consistent with the thermal computation >> given in _Fundamentals_of_Light_Sources_and_Lasers_, by >> Mark Csele. So the intrinsic width is considerably smaller >> than the Doppler broadening, and that is all that matters here. >> >>The frequency and wavelength separations of the different longitudinal >>modes are fully consistent with the speed of light being constant. This >>implies that for moving Ne atoms, the product of frequency times >>wavelength for the lasing transition does indeed equal c. This is >>optical spectroscopy, and these values are known quite accurately. > > Oh yeh! Thus disproving BaTH .. I'm glad you're so please that light is indeed c even when the source is moving. >>This example also refutes Henri Wilson's "BaTh", which claims that the >>wavelength of light emitted from a source is the same in all inertial >>frames -- for the Doppler-broadened lasing transition to excite multiple >>longitudinal modes in the mirrors its wavelength MUST vary with speed. > > Photon wavelength DOES change during a photon acceleration...that's part > of my > BaTh. That's not what you said before. You said doppler only affected speed and frequency and that wavelength was the same .. so .. perhaps you should provide details of this theory you are putting forward? >>Note that without the Doppler broadening of the lasing transition, He-Ne >>lasers would be vastly more difficult to set up and get working. > You haven't described the experiment in much detail so I can't comment. You haven't described your BaTH theory, which seems different to everyone else's ballistic theory.
From: Tom Roberts on 30 Dec 2007 12:25 Dr. Henri Wilson wrote: > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:52:19 -0600, Tom Roberts <tjroberts137(a)sbcglobal.net> > wrote: >> Consider the operation of a standard lab He-Ne laser. The 3S->2P >> transition of neon is Doppler broadened to about 1.5 GHz [...] >> The frequency and wavelength separations of the different longitudinal >> modes are fully consistent with the speed of light being constant. This >> implies that for moving Ne atoms, the product of frequency times >> wavelength for the lasing transition does indeed equal c. This is >> optical spectroscopy, and these values are known quite accurately. > > Oh yeh! Yes. >> This example also refutes Henri Wilson's "BaTh", which claims that the >> wavelength of light emitted from a source is the same in all inertial >> frames -- for the Doppler-broadened lasing transition to excite multiple >> longitudinal modes in the mirrors its wavelength MUST vary with speed. > > Photon wavelength DOES change during a photon acceleration...that's part of my > BaTh. That's irrelevant. It is the Doppler broadening of the emission line of neon that matters (remember how a laser works). And the broadening MUST occur in wavelength, or multiple longitudinal modes could not be within the effective linewidth of the neon atoms. The longitudinal modes are, of course, completely determined by the wavelength of the light and the mirror spacing (N*\lambda = 2*L, where N is some integer, \lambda is the wavelength of the light, and L is the mirror spacing; for a typical He-Ne laser, N is about a million). This is a simple and direct refutation of your claim that the wavelength of light emitted from a moving source is independent of its velocity. It is the movement of the neon atoms relative to the mirrors that makes their individual emission lines vary in wavelength enough to intersect multiple longitudinal modes of the mirrors. >> Note that without the Doppler broadening of the lasing transition, He-Ne >> lasers would be vastly more difficult to set up and get working. > > You haven't described the experiment in much detail so I can't comment. Just turn on a common lab He-Ne laser and observe the wavelength spectrum of its output (high resolution is needed). Or look it up in a good laser textbook (e.g. _Fundamentals_of_Light_Sources_and_Lasers_, by Mark Csele). Or even online: http://members.misty.com/don/laserhen.htm (the section on "Longitudinal Modes of Operation"). If the wavelength of emitted light were independent of the source velocity, then the INTRINSIC neon linewidth would be the effective linewidth of the laser's gas discharge, and a He-Ne laser would have to have its mirrors aligned precisely so the above condition for longitudinal modes would lie within the intrinsic linewidth of neon. That means that just a single longitudinal mode could do that, and one would need to stabilize the tube holding the mirrors MUCH more carefully (to keep that mode at the emission line as the tube heats up). The reason He-Ne lasers are so inexpensive is that such precise alignment and temperature compensation are not necessary -- in a real He-Ne laser with a Doppler-broadened linewidth, 3-5 longitudinal modes always overlap the effective emission line, and as the tube heats up and the mirrors move apart, the modes drift but there are always 3-5 modes within the effective linewidth and the laser operates (automatically hopping modes as they move across the effective emission line). While I don't have references sufficiently accurate to quantitatively answer the original poster's question (does f*\lambda=c for a moving source?), the simple fact that the Doppler-broadened linewidth overlaps MULTIPLE longitudinal modes is enough to refute Henri Wilson's claim that "wavelength is absolute", and thus refute his "BaTh". Of course everyone except Henri already knows that the emitted wavelength varies with source motion. Tom Roberts
From: NoEinstein on 30 Dec 2007 12:33
On Dec 30, 3:15 am, Pentcho Valev <pva...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Dec 30, 5:52 am, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in > sci.physics.relativity: > > > > > > > David wrote: > > > I've been trying to find experimental verification that c is constant > > > by looking for experiments where wavelength and frequency are measured > > > independently of each other and results from moving sources are > > > compared to the results from stationary sources - like the wavelength > > > of light with frequency f (as measured in a rest frame) from a moving > > > star compared to the wavelength of light with the same frequency f > > > created by a source in the rest frame. But I wasn't able to find any > > > experiment where wavelength and frequency are measured independently > > > to confirm that their product is a constant. > > > Consider the operation of a standard lab He-Ne laser. The 3S->2P > > transition of neon is Doppler broadened to about 1.5 GHz [#]. The > > wavelength is 632.8 nm, and for mirrors 30 cm apart there are about 1 > > million wavelengths between the mirrors, with spacing between > > longitudinal modes of 400-500 MHz. So typically 3 or 4 longitudinal > > modes of the mirrors overlap the Doppler-broadened linewith of the > > lasing transition in Ne. > > > [#] I don't have a reference for the intrinsic linewidth > > of this transition, but the observed 1.5 GHz Doppler- > > broadened width is consistent with the thermal computation > > given in _Fundamentals_of_Light_Sources_and_Lasers_, by > > Mark Csele. So the intrinsic width is considerably smaller > > than the Doppler broadening, and that is all that matters here. > > > The frequency and wavelength separations of the different longitudinal > > modes are fully consistent with the speed of light being constant. This > > implies that for moving Ne atoms, the product of frequency times > > wavelength for the lasing transition does indeed equal c. This is > > optical spectroscopy, and these values are known quite accurately. > > > This example also refutes Henri Wilson's "BaTh", which claims that the > > wavelength of light emitted from a source is the same in all inertial > > frames -- for the Doppler-broadened lasing transition to excite multiple > > longitudinal modes in the mirrors its wavelength MUST vary with speed. > > > Note that without the Doppler broadening of the lasing transition, He-Ne > > lasers would be vastly more difficult to set up and get working. > > > Tom Roberts > > Bravo Roberts bravo Tom bravo Albert Einstein of our generation > (Hawking is no longer the Albert Einstein of our generation)! At last > you have found the camouflage you needed so badly! Two years ago, when > we discussed an analogous problem, you still knew nothing of > wavelength measurements; you only knew that "on earth the speed of > light is c": > > http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/threa... > Tom Roberts, Sep 25, 2005: "None of the above measured wavelength > directly. But we do know that on earth the speed of light is c, and in > the GPS the speed of light is c between satellite and ground." > > Roberts Roberts some day even your zombies will ask the fatal > questions: > > "Oh Divine Master Roberts, why don't you explain both the Doppler > effect and the gravitational redshift in terms of the textbook > formula: > > frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) > > Since the frequency shifts, oh Divine Master, isn't it reasonable to > assume that the speed of light shifts with the frequency, as Divine > Albert did in 1911? If we assume that the speed of light remains > constant and it is the wavelength that shifts with the frequency, will > that assumption have implications that are too silly, oh Divine Master > Roberts?" > > Pentcho Valev > pva...(a)yahoo.com- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ATTENTION: Those of you who are interested in discussing the various moot points of Einstein's theories, or the off-shoots of his "reasoning", are invited to view the various posts of -- NoEinstein -- who has conclusively disproved Einstein both mathematically and experimentally. Access may be gained via the following NoEinstein post, and via the attached additional links following such. Those of you wishing to reply to any point of science, are urged to do so in the most recent post(s), because the earlier ones, though still quite apt as to the science, are no longer being checked for comments. I hope that you will find my links both interesting and educational! -- NoEinstein -- Matter from Thin Air http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/ee4fe3946dfc0c31/1f1872476bc6ca90?hl=en#1f1872476bc6ca90 Curing Einstein's Disease http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/4ff9e866e0d87562/f5f848ad8aba67da?hl=en#f5f848ad8aba67da __________ |