Wonderful!
in [Physics]
|
From: mpc755 on 21 Dec 2009 19:48 On Dec 21, 5:13 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >The problem with Einstein's train gedanken is it is assumed the state > >of the aether does not matter, but even Einstein punted on this one: > >'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein' > >http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Extras/Einstein_ether.html > >"If we assume the ether to be at rest relatively to K, but in motion > >relatively to K', the physical equivalence of K and K' seems to me > >from the logical standpoint, not indeed downright incorrect, but > >nevertheless unacceptable." > > I think you need to read his next two sentences: "The next position which > it was possible to take up in face of this state of things appeared to be > the following. The ether does not exist at all." > > There are too many contradictions when trying to involve an aether. > Physicists wrestled with it many decades ago and generally came to the > conclusion that there is no need for an aether, and it likely simply does > not exist. This would be a "particle" artifact of the photon that all > "particles" in physics have with the wave/particle duality. A "particle" > has no need for a medium, just like a bullet doesn't need air (or anything > else) to shoot through. Light travels at 'c' with respect to the aether. An atomic clock 'ticks' with respect to the aether pressure. The aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by massive objects is gravity. When a double slit experiment is performed with a C-60 molecule the C-60 molecule enters and exits a single slit while the displacement wave the C-60 molecule creates in the aether travels through multiple slits. Einstein's train gedanken performed with any medium at rest with respect to the embankment and the light traveling through the medium travels from A and B to M'. Light travels with respect to the medium. Einstein's train gadenken performed with aether at rest with respect to the embankment and the light traveling through the aether travels from A and B to M'. Light travels with respect to the aether.
From: mpc755 on 21 Dec 2009 19:53 On Dec 21, 4:32 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > > On Dec 20, 4:38 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Do the light waves travel from A' and B' to M' or from A and B to M'? > > Yes. Both. A and A' were the same location when the strike hit. That > defines a fixed event in space and time .. the light travels from that fixed > event to all observers. Same for B/B' Incorrect. The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. A pebble is dropped into the water when A and A' are at the same location. The wave the pebble creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed with respect to the water. The wave the pebble creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed with respect to A. When the wave the ripple makes in the water reaches the Observer at M', has the wave traveled from A' to M' or from A to M'? The ripple the pebble makes in the water travels from A to M'. A' is meaningless when discussing the distance the wave travels to M' through the water at rest with respect to the embankment. The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. A flash of light occurs when A and A' are at the same location. The light wave the flash creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed with respect to the water. The light wave the flash creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed with respect to A. When the light wave the flash makes in the water reaches the Observer at M', has the wave traveled from A' to M' or from A to M'? The light wave the flash makes in the water travels from A to M'. A' is meaningless when discussing the distance the wave travels to M' through the water at rest with respect to the embankment.
From: mpc755 on 21 Dec 2009 22:58 On Dec 21, 7:48 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 21, 5:13 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > > > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > >The problem with Einstein's train gedanken is it is assumed the state > > >of the aether does not matter, but even Einstein punted on this one: > > >'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein' > > >http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Extras/Einstein_ether.html > > >"If we assume the ether to be at rest relatively to K, but in motion > > >relatively to K', the physical equivalence of K and K' seems to me > > >from the logical standpoint, not indeed downright incorrect, but > > >nevertheless unacceptable." > > > I think you need to read his next two sentences: "The next position which > > it was possible to take up in face of this state of things appeared to be > > the following. The ether does not exist at all." > > > There are too many contradictions when trying to involve an aether. > > Physicists wrestled with it many decades ago and generally came to the > > conclusion that there is no need for an aether, and it likely simply does > > not exist. This would be a "particle" artifact of the photon that all > > "particles" in physics have with the wave/particle duality. A "particle" > > has no need for a medium, just like a bullet doesn't need air (or anything > > else) to shoot through. > > Light travels at 'c' with respect to the aether. > > An atomic clock 'ticks' with respect to the aether pressure. > > The aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by massive > objects is gravity. > > When a double slit experiment is performed with a C-60 molecule the > C-60 molecule enters and exits a single slit while the displacement > wave the C-60 molecule creates in the aether travels through multiple > slits. > > Einstein's train gedanken performed with any medium at rest with > respect to the embankment and the light traveling through the medium > travels from A and B to M'. Light travels with respect to the medium. > > Einstein's train gadenken performed with aether at rest with respect > to the embankment and the light traveling through the aether travels > from A and B to M'. Light travels with respect to the aether. In the image on the right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#The_experiment There are physical waves in the aether traveling both the blue and red paths, while a photon 'particle' travels the blue or red path. Where the blue and red paths are combined in the image, the physical waves in the aether create interference which alters the direction the photon 'particle' travels.
From: paparios on 22 Dec 2009 05:53 On 21 dic, 16:48, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 21, 12:15 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 12:21 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 17, 1:05 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 17, 1:03 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 17 dic, 14:59, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 12:54 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > The water is at rest relative to the embankment. There is a single > > > > > > LIGHTNING STRIKE in the water at A/A' and a single LIGHTNING STRIKE in > > > > > > the water at B/B'. Where does the Observer at M' measure to in order > > > > > > to determine how far the LIGHT travels? Does the Observer at M' > > > > > > measure to A' and B', or does the Observer at M' measure to A and B in > > > > > > order to determine how far the LIGHT travels to M'? > > > > > > Observer M' is passing by the location of observer M, at time t0. M' > > > > > is moving at a speed v, relative to observer M, on the direction of x. > > > > > All this is happening in deep space, without an gravitational mass > > > > > (including water). Later, at time t1, observer M sees TWO simultaneous > > > > > light signals A and B arriving from opposite directions along x. > > > > > > Question: a) Since observer M', in the interval of time (t1-t0) has > > > > > already moved towards the source of the light signal B, did he observe > > > > > the light signal coming from B before observer M, or did he not? > > > > > b) Since at time t1, the ligth signal coming from point A is at the > > > > > location of observer M, is it true that the light signal coming from > > > > > point A has some travel to do to arrive to the location of observer > > > > > M', or is it not true? > > > > > c) From (a) and (b) is it true that observer M' will declare that he > > > > > received two non simultaneous light signals (first the ligt signal > > > > > from point B, later the light signal from point A), or is it not true? > > > > > > Miguel Rios > > > > > The water is at rest relative to the embankment. There is a single > > > > LIGHTNING STRIKE in the water at A/A' and a single LIGHTNING STRIKE in > > > > the water at B/B'. Where does the Observer at M' measure to in order > > > > to determine how far the LIGHT travels? Does the Observer at M' > > > > measure to A' and B', or does the Observer at M' measure to A and B in > > > > order to determine how far the LIGHT travels to M'? > > > > Since no one is able to answer this question, I will have to answer > > > it. > > > > Since the light waves associated with the lightning strikes are > > > traveling relative to the water which is at rest relative to the > > > embankment, the Observer at M' measures to A and B in order to > > > determine how far the light traveled to M'. > > > This doesn't have anything to do with Einstein's gedanken, then. > > > > With the water being at rest relative to the embankment, measuring to > > > A' and B' is meaningless. > > > Why is it meaningless? > > Because light propagates outward at the same speed in all directions > with respect to the water. > > http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/einstein_relativity03.htm > > "In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly > have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes > place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the > latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert > Einstein- You should complete your citing!!! I goes like follows: "In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not. The velocity of light relative to the liquid and the velocity of the latter relative to the tube are thus known, and we require the velocity of light relative to the tube. It is clear that we have the problem of Section VI again before us. The tube plays the part of the railway embankment or of the co- ordinate system K, the liquid plays the part of the carriage or of the co-ordinate system K', and finally, the light plays the part of the man walking along the carriage, or of the moving point in the present section. If we denote the velocity of the light relative to the tube by W, then this is given by the equation (A) or (B), according as the Galilei transformation or the Lorentz transformation corresponds to the facts. Experiment decides in favour of equation (B) derived from the theory of relativity, and the agreement is, indeed, very exact. According to recent and most excellent measurements by Zeeman, the influence of the velocity of flow v on the propagation of light is represented by formula (B) to within one per cent." Mguel Rios
From: paparios on 22 Dec 2009 06:57
On 21 dic, 21:40, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 21, 3:58 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > At the time of the lightning strike, A and A' are at the same > > location. Then the light leaves that common spot before A and A' > > separate. Therefore to say that the light comes from A and not A', > > when A and A' were at the SAME PLACE at the moment of the strike, is > > not just stupid, it is spectacularly stupid. > > The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. A pebble is > dropped into the water when A and A' are at the same location. The > wave the pebble creates propagates outward in all directions at the > same speed WITH RESPECT TO THE WATER. The wave the pebble creates > propagates outward in all directions at the same speed WITH RESPECT TO > A. > The correct sentence is: The wave the pebble creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed WITH RESPECT TO THE LOCATION A/A' WHERE THE PEBBLE HIT THE WATER. The wave the pebble creates propagates outward in all directions at the same speed WITH RESPECT TO A/A'. > When the wave the ripple makes in the water reaches the Observer at > M', has the wave traveled from A' to M' or from A to M'? The ripple > the pebble makes in the water travels from A to M'. A' is meaningless > when discussing the distance the wave travels to M'. > Wrong!!! Once created the wave just propagates and eventually it will reach the location of both observers M and M'. The hit point coordinates exist in both frames of reference. So when you say A/A', it means a point A with coordinates (-x_A,t_A) and a point A' with coordinates (-x_A',t_A'). The light signal front is propagating with some definite equations of movement involving the location of the front (in terms of the coordinates (x,t) at the embankment frame and (x',t') at the train frame). For instance if the pebble hit the water at time t=0 (as measured on the embankment frame of reference), then the equation of movement of the light signal on the frame K is: x(t)=ct-x_A The equation of movement of the same light signal, but now viewed from the frame K' of the train is: x'(t)=ct'-x_A' So for sure that A and A' are both relevant to these calculations. Miguel Rios |