myths about python 3
in [Python]
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From: Terry Reedy on 27 Jan 2010 17:34 On 1/27/2010 3:56 PM, John Nagle wrote: > 2. Python 3 is supported by multiple Python implementations. > > FALSE - Only CPython supports 3.x. Iron Python, Unladen Swallow, > PyPy, and Jython have all stayed with 2.x versions of Python. Actually, Unladen Swallow is now targeted at 3.1; its developers have conservatively proposed its integration in CPython 3.3. I would not be completely shocked if it happens in 3.2. > Arguably, Python 3 has been rejected by the market. Almost everything is 'arguable'. Based on experience, Guido never expected major uptake until 3.2 (a year away). > Instead, there's now Python 2.6, Just who produced that? and why? > Python 2.7, Does not exist yet, but again, coming from the same devs for the purpose of helping transition to 3.x. > and Python 2.8. Unlikely to ever exist. > Python 3 has turned into a debacle like Perl 6, now 10 years old. You have to wait another 9 years to really say that. However, my impression is that Python 3 alreays surpasses Perl 6. > That's the reality, Python 3 fanboys. Why are you such a Python 3 hateboy? Terry Jan Reedy
From: Daniel Fetchinson on 27 Jan 2010 18:38 >> Hi folks, >> >> I was going to write this post for a while because all sorts of myths >> periodically come up on this list about python 3. I don't think the >> posters mean to spread false information on purpose, they simply are >> not aware of the facts. >> >> My list is surely incomplete, please feel free to post your favorite >> misconception about python 3 that people periodically state, claim or >> ask about. > > Myths about Python 3: I said myths, not facts! :) s/Myths/Facts/ > 1. Python 3 is supported by major Linux distributions. > > FALSE - most distros are shipping with Python 2.4, or 2.5 at best. This latter statement is false, Fedora 11 and 12 come with python 2.6. > 2. Python 3 is supported by multiple Python implementations. > > FALSE - Only CPython supports 3.x. Iron Python, Unladen Swallow, > PyPy, and Jython have all stayed with 2.x versions of Python. This latter statement is false, unladen swallow is currently targeting 3.x and may even be merged into cpython 3.x. > 3. Python 3 is supported by most 3rd party Python packages. > > FALSE - it's not supported by MySQLdb, OpenSSL, feedparser, etc. s/most/my favorite/ Actually, tons of 3rd party packages are already ported, postgres and django are just 2 examples, the next release of PIL will be another. > Arguably, Python 3 has been rejected by the market. Instead, there's > now Python 2.6, Python 2.7, and Python 2.8. Python 3 has turned into > a debacle like Perl 6, now 10 years old. These are the kinds of myths I had in mind when starting the thread. All sorts of BS is kept circulating without any facts to back up the claims. Actually, in this thread tons of rebuttals can be found to your statements but I doubt you will change your mind :) Hopefully others reading all of this will at least see what is BS and what is the actual situation about python 3. Cheers, Daniel -- Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
From: David Malcolm on 27 Jan 2010 17:58 On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 16:25 -0500, Benjamin Kaplan wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:56 PM, John Nagle <nagle(a)animats.com> wrote: > > Daniel Fetchinson wrote: > >> > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> I was going to write this post for a while because all sorts of myths > >> periodically come up on this list about python 3. I don't think the > >> posters mean to spread false information on purpose, they simply are > >> not aware of the facts. > >> > >> My list is surely incomplete, please feel free to post your favorite > >> misconception about python 3 that people periodically state, claim or > >> ask about. > > > > Myths about Python 3: > > > > 1. Python 3 is supported by major Linux distributions. > > > > FALSE - most distros are shipping with Python 2.4, or 2.5 at best. > > > The latest versions of Ubuntu Jaunty and Karmic, Fedora 11 and 12, and > OpenSUSE 11.2 all use Python 2.6. Ubuntu has been shipping python 3 > since Jaunty came out last April. According to Fedora's package index, > Python 3 is in the devel version which probably means it will be in > upcoming versions of Fedora as well. FWIW, more information on Fedora python 3 status here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python3F13 [snip] > Give the package maintainers time to update. There were some pretty > big changes to the C API. Most of the major 3rd party packages like > numpy and MySQLdb have already commited to having a Python 3 version. > They just haven't gotten them out yet. I'll take this opportunity to make a shameless plug for my 2to3c tool: http://dmalcolm.livejournal.com/3935.html which takes some of the grunt work out of taking C code and making it compilable against both 2 and 3. (it will still require a human to do some of the work, alas). Hope this is helpful Dave
From: Ethan Furman on 27 Jan 2010 19:14 Daniel Fetchinson wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I was going to write this post for a while because all sorts of myths >>> periodically come up on this list about python 3. I don't think the >>> posters mean to spread false information on purpose, they simply are >>> not aware of the facts. >>> >>> My list is surely incomplete, please feel free to post your favorite >>> misconception about python 3 that people periodically state, claim or >>> ask about. >>> >>> 1. Print statement/function creates incompatibility between 2.x and 3.x! >>> >>> Certainly false or misleading, if one uses 2.6 and 3.x the >>> incompatibility is not there. Print as a function works in 2.6: >>> >>> Python 2.6.2 (r262:71600, Aug 21 2009, 12:23:57) >>> [GCC 4.4.1 20090818 (Red Hat 4.4.1-6)] on linux2 >>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>>>>> print( 'hello' ) >>> hello >>>>>> print 'hello' >>> hello >>> >>> 2. Integer division creates incompatibility between 2.x and 3.x! >>> >>> Again false or misleading, because one can get the 3.x behavior with 2.6: >>> >>> Python 2.6.2 (r262:71600, Aug 21 2009, 12:23:57) >>> [GCC 4.4.1 20090818 (Red Hat 4.4.1-6)] on linux2 >>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>>>>> 6/5 >>> 1 >>>>>> from __future__ import division >>>>>> 6/5 >>> 1.2 >>> >>> >>> Please feel free to post your favorite false or misleading claim about >>> python 3! >> Well, I see two false or misleading claims just above - namely that >> the two claims above are false or misleading. They tell just half of >> the story, and that half is indeed easy. A Python 3 program can be >> unchanged (in the case of print) or with only trivial modifications >> (in the case of integer division) be made to run on Python 2.6. > > Okay, so we agree that as long as print and integer division is > concerned, a program can easily be written that runs on both 2.6 and > 3.x. > > My statements are exactly this, so I don't understand why you disagree. > >> The other way around this is _not_ the case. > > What do you mean? > >> To say that two things are >> compatible if one can be used for the other, but the other not for the >> first, is false or misleading. > > I'm not sure what you mean here. Maybe I didn't make myself clear > enough, but what I mean is this: as long as print and integer division > is concerned, it is trivial to write code that runs on both 2.6 and > 3.x. Hence if someone wants to highlight incompatibility (which surely > exists) between 2.6 and 3.x he/she has to look elsewhere. > > Cheers, > Daniel > I think what Andre is saying is that you can't get 2.x behavior in 3.x, only the other way 'round. In the integer division instance, the 2.x behavior of 6/5 = 1 is not going to happen in 3.x. ~Ethan~
From: Steven D'Aprano on 27 Jan 2010 19:19
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:56:10 -0800, John Nagle wrote: > Daniel Fetchinson wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I was going to write this post for a while because all sorts of myths >> periodically come up on this list about python 3. I don't think the >> posters mean to spread false information on purpose, they simply are >> not aware of the facts. >> >> My list is surely incomplete, please feel free to post your favorite >> misconception about python 3 that people periodically state, claim or >> ask about. > > Myths about Python 3: > > 1. Python 3 is supported by major Linux distributions. > 2. Python 3 is supported by multiple Python implementations. > 3. Python 3 is supported by most 3rd party Python packages. A myth actually needs to be believed by some sector of the population, even if a small one. (Isolated nut cases don't count.) Star Wars is not a myth, because nobody -- not even those wacky people who put down "Jedi" as their religion on census forms -- actually believes it is a documentary. I've never heard anyone claiming any of those three "myths". I conclude that you just made them up, that they are fictional claims rather than genuine myths mistakenly believed by some people. So, in that spirit, here are three more for your collection. Perhaps you could start a list on a website somewhere. 4. Python 3 will make you irresistible to women. FALSE - Python 3 coders are no more likely to get a date than any other programmer. 5. Python 3 programs cannot be buggy, no matter how poorly you code. FALSE - programs written in Python 3 can contain bugs. 6. The code for Python 3 was handed down to Guido from the Heavens, carved into stone tablets by the Gods themselves. FALSE - Python 3 was designed and written by fallible human beings, and consequently there is no guarantee that it will be perfect in all ways for all purposes. > That's the reality, Python 3 fanboys. Speaks for itself. -- Steven |