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From: Samuel M. Goldwasser on 12 Feb 2010 08:03
"Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> writes:

> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:js-dnc9QtPIoLOnWnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica...
> >
> > "Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam(a)repairfaq.org> wrote in message
> > news:uiqa3l24t.fsf(a)repairfaq.org...
> >> PeterD <peter2(a)hipson.net> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:22:52 -0600, "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >Does the "starter" continue to function once the lamp is going, or does
> >>> >it
> >>> >"drop out"? Just wondering. I fixed my MIL's light by replacing the
> >>> >defective coil being driven by the SIDAC NTE6419, but wife is worried
> >>> >that
> >>> >I'm going to burn her mom's house down. I put a larger coil in, and it
> >>> >is
> >>> >brighter than it was, so she is worried that it will overheat and catch
> >>> >fire. I tell her not to worry cause if it overheats the SIDAC will
> >>> >fail,
> >>> >shutting the whole system down. But if the "starter" (labeled
> >>> >"ignitor")
> >>> >only comes on for a few seconds to get the lamp going, that would be
> >>> >better
> >>> >than ever.
> >>> >
> >>> >Thanks for any feedback,
> >>> >
> >>> >Dave
> >>>
> >>> In the diagram at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp, near
> >>> the middle of the web page, please point out the 'starter' or
> >>> 'igniter'? Most HPS lamps have just a ballast and the lamp bulb, at
> >>> least the ones I see.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I'd strongly recommend not replacing the balast with
> >>> anything other than the properly designed balast, matched to the bulb.
> >>> Since you have made this change, I'd agree with your wife: the lamp is
> >>> likely unsafe and probalby should not be used.
> >>>
> >>> And replacing the ballast with a different one has what to do with the
> >>> (mythical) starter? That leaves me confused...
> >>
> >> Agreed.
> >>
> >> And especially, no modification should be allowed that increases the
> >> brightness of the lamp unless the lamp is confirmed to be operating at
> >> the
> >> spec'd current. Presumably in this case, it there was some other
> >> problem resulting in reduced current. Brighter lamp -> higher
> >> temperature,
> >> which can result in a quick failure, hopefully not very explosively.
> >>
> >> If there is no external igniter circuit, there may be one built into
> >> the lamp.
> >>
> >> Don't believe everything you read in Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> --
> >> sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/

> > Hey all,
> >
> > Thank you very much for the input, first of all. Secondly, I posted a
> > JPEG of the starter (labeled "ignitor" on the cannister which holds the
> > PCB and ciruit I am about to referrence) to ABSE on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM.
> > There pictured is the (failing) blue choke I replaced with a larger choke.
> > The one I took out *looked* like it might be a 60 or 75 uH choke, and I
> > put first a 100 uH choke in its place, and finally a 130 uH that would
> > just barely fit into the (plastic) cannister. In testing, the choke did
> > not seem to generate any heat, and my logic was as follows: if it did
> > cause the starter (ignitor) to overheat it would bring about the demise of
> > the NTE2419 SIDAC bi-directional thyristor diode immediately to it's side
> > (on the right in the JPEG) thereby shutting down the circuit. Below the
> > PCB (in the JPEG) is the ballast, which I did nothing with. Since I was
> > replacing a passive component with a passive component, I wasn't too
> > worried. Burn-in did not raise any suspicions (1/4 hour of operation in
> > my workshop). I would send more photos (and try again to figure out this
> > damn camera) but the light is currently in use. The experimenting I did
> > with the light only seemed to show that a lower inductance choke resulted
> > in a more "yellow" illumination, and a higher inductance gave a "whiter"
> > light. I can bring it down if there is truly cause for concern, just hate
> > to do so unnecessarilly. And there is nothing in the diagram referrenced
> > above like the small circuit I was working on inside the cover of the
> > lamp. Don't know what to think about that...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave

> PS: Burn in was a 1/2 hour operation in my workshot, not 1/4 hour, as
> written above. My bad. Sorry.

Sorry, where did you post the JPEG of your circuit?

Changing anything in the starter shouldn't affect how the lamp runs.

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

From: DB5151 on 12 Feb 2010 10:58

"Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam(a)repairfaq.org> wrote in message
news:ud40atxm0.fsf(a)repairfaq.org...
> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:js-dnc9QtPIoLOnWnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica...
>> >
>> > "Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam(a)repairfaq.org> wrote in message
>> > news:uiqa3l24t.fsf(a)repairfaq.org...
>> >> PeterD <peter2(a)hipson.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:22:52 -0600, "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >Does the "starter" continue to function once the lamp is going, or
>> >>> >does
>> >>> >it
>> >>> >"drop out"? Just wondering. I fixed my MIL's light by replacing
>> >>> >the
>> >>> >defective coil being driven by the SIDAC NTE6419, but wife is
>> >>> >worried
>> >>> >that
>> >>> >I'm going to burn her mom's house down. I put a larger coil in, and
>> >>> >it
>> >>> >is
>> >>> >brighter than it was, so she is worried that it will overheat and
>> >>> >catch
>> >>> >fire. I tell her not to worry cause if it overheats the SIDAC will
>> >>> >fail,
>> >>> >shutting the whole system down. But if the "starter" (labeled
>> >>> >"ignitor")
>> >>> >only comes on for a few seconds to get the lamp going, that would be
>> >>> >better
>> >>> >than ever.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Thanks for any feedback,
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Dave
>> >>>
>> >>> In the diagram at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp,
>> >>> near
>> >>> the middle of the web page, please point out the 'starter' or
>> >>> 'igniter'? Most HPS lamps have just a ballast and the lamp bulb, at
>> >>> least the ones I see.
>> >>>
>> >>> Personally I'd strongly recommend not replacing the balast with
>> >>> anything other than the properly designed balast, matched to the
>> >>> bulb.
>> >>> Since you have made this change, I'd agree with your wife: the lamp
>> >>> is
>> >>> likely unsafe and probalby should not be used.
>> >>>
>> >>> And replacing the ballast with a different one has what to do with
>> >>> the
>> >>> (mythical) starter? That leaves me confused...
>> >>
>> >> Agreed.
>> >>
>> >> And especially, no modification should be allowed that increases the
>> >> brightness of the lamp unless the lamp is confirmed to be operating at
>> >> the
>> >> spec'd current. Presumably in this case, it there was some other
>> >> problem resulting in reduced current. Brighter lamp -> higher
>> >> temperature,
>> >> which can result in a quick failure, hopefully not very explosively.
>> >>
>> >> If there is no external igniter circuit, there may be one built into
>> >> the lamp.
>> >>
>> >> Don't believe everything you read in Wikipedia.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
>
>> > Hey all,
>> >
>> > Thank you very much for the input, first of all. Secondly, I posted a
>> > JPEG of the starter (labeled "ignitor" on the cannister which holds the
>> > PCB and ciruit I am about to referrence) to ABSE on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM.
>> > There pictured is the (failing) blue choke I replaced with a larger
>> > choke.
>> > The one I took out *looked* like it might be a 60 or 75 uH choke, and I
>> > put first a 100 uH choke in its place, and finally a 130 uH that would
>> > just barely fit into the (plastic) cannister. In testing, the choke
>> > did
>> > not seem to generate any heat, and my logic was as follows: if it did
>> > cause the starter (ignitor) to overheat it would bring about the demise
>> > of
>> > the NTE2419 SIDAC bi-directional thyristor diode immediately to it's
>> > side
>> > (on the right in the JPEG) thereby shutting down the circuit. Below
>> > the
>> > PCB (in the JPEG) is the ballast, which I did nothing with. Since I
>> > was
>> > replacing a passive component with a passive component, I wasn't too
>> > worried. Burn-in did not raise any suspicions (1/4 hour of operation
>> > in
>> > my workshop). I would send more photos (and try again to figure out
>> > this
>> > damn camera) but the light is currently in use. The experimenting I
>> > did
>> > with the light only seemed to show that a lower inductance choke
>> > resulted
>> > in a more "yellow" illumination, and a higher inductance gave a
>> > "whiter"
>> > light. I can bring it down if there is truly cause for concern, just
>> > hate
>> > to do so unnecessarilly. And there is nothing in the diagram
>> > referrenced
>> > above like the small circuit I was working on inside the cover of the
>> > lamp. Don't know what to think about that...
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Dave
>
>> PS: Burn in was a 1/2 hour operation in my workshot, not 1/4 hour, as
>> written above. My bad. Sorry.
>
> Sorry, where did you post the JPEG of your circuit?
>
> Changing anything in the starter shouldn't affect how the lamp runs.
>
> --
> sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
> Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
> +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
> | Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
>


I posted it to alt.binaries.schematics.electronics on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM. It
was the best picture I could get out of my camera, but is still quite
blurry/out-of-focus.

Thanks,

Dave



From: PeterD on 12 Feb 2010 19:39
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:40:59 -0600, "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>Thank you very much for the input, first of all. Secondly, I posted a JPEG
>of the starter (labeled "ignitor" on the cannister which holds the PCB and
>ciruit I am about to referrence) to ABSE on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM. There
>pictured is the (failing) blue choke I replaced with a larger choke. The
>one I took out *looked* like it might be a 60 or 75 uH choke, and I put
>first a 100 uH choke in its place, and finally a 130 uH that would just
>barely fit into the (plastic) cannister. In testing, the choke did not seem
>to generate any heat, and my logic was as follows: if it did cause the
>starter (ignitor) to overheat it would bring about the demise of the NTE2419
>SIDAC bi-directional thyristor diode immediately to it's side (on the right
>in the JPEG) thereby shutting down the circuit. Below the PCB (in the JPEG)
>is the ballast, which I did nothing with. Since I was replacing a passive
>component with a passive component, I wasn't too worried. Burn-in did not
>raise any suspicions (1/4 hour of operation in my workshop). I would send
>more photos (and try again to figure out this damn camera) but the light is
>currently in use. The experimenting I did with the light only seemed to
>show that a lower inductance choke resulted in a more "yellow" illumination,
>and a higher inductance gave a "whiter" light. I can bring it down if there
>is truly cause for concern, just hate to do so unnecessarilly. And there is
>nothing in the diagram referrenced above like the small circuit I was
>working on inside the cover of the lamp. Don't know what to think about
>that...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
>

Dave, can you post the fixture's name and model information? Or a link
to a reseller selling the same basic unit that one might be able to
research the circuitry?
From: PeterD on 12 Feb 2010 19:41
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:58:45 -0600, "DB5151(a)htmail.com"
<DB5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

>>
>
>
>I posted it to alt.binaries.schematics.electronics on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM. It
>was the best picture I could get out of my camera, but is still quite
>blurry/out-of-focus.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
>
>
Can you post it to a photos web site? Althought the binaries groups
are supposed to have binaries (hence the name!) many times not all
mirrors and downstream servers carry the binary posts.
From: Samuel M. Goldwasser on 12 Feb 2010 21:54
"DB5151(a)htmail.com" <DB5151(a)hotmail.com> writes:

> "Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam(a)repairfaq.org> wrote in message
> news:ud40atxm0.fsf(a)repairfaq.org...
> > "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:js-dnc9QtPIoLOnWnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica...
> >> >
> >> > "Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam(a)repairfaq.org> wrote in message
> >> > news:uiqa3l24t.fsf(a)repairfaq.org...
> >> >> PeterD <peter2(a)hipson.net> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:22:52 -0600, "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> >Does the "starter" continue to function once the lamp is going, or
> >> >>> >does
> >> >>> >it
> >> >>> >"drop out"? Just wondering. I fixed my MIL's light by replacing
> >> >>> >the
> >> >>> >defective coil being driven by the SIDAC NTE6419, but wife is
> >> >>> >worried
> >> >>> >that
> >> >>> >I'm going to burn her mom's house down. I put a larger coil in, and
> >> >>> >it
> >> >>> >is
> >> >>> >brighter than it was, so she is worried that it will overheat and
> >> >>> >catch
> >> >>> >fire. I tell her not to worry cause if it overheats the SIDAC will
> >> >>> >fail,
> >> >>> >shutting the whole system down. But if the "starter" (labeled
> >> >>> >"ignitor")
> >> >>> >only comes on for a few seconds to get the lamp going, that would be
> >> >>> >better
> >> >>> >than ever.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Thanks for any feedback,
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Dave
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In the diagram at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp,
> >> >>> near
> >> >>> the middle of the web page, please point out the 'starter' or
> >> >>> 'igniter'? Most HPS lamps have just a ballast and the lamp bulb, at
> >> >>> least the ones I see.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Personally I'd strongly recommend not replacing the balast with
> >> >>> anything other than the properly designed balast, matched to the
> >> >>> bulb.
> >> >>> Since you have made this change, I'd agree with your wife: the lamp
> >> >>> is
> >> >>> likely unsafe and probalby should not be used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And replacing the ballast with a different one has what to do with
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> (mythical) starter? That leaves me confused...
> >> >>
> >> >> Agreed.
> >> >>
> >> >> And especially, no modification should be allowed that increases the
> >> >> brightness of the lamp unless the lamp is confirmed to be operating at
> >> >> the
> >> >> spec'd current. Presumably in this case, it there was some other
> >> >> problem resulting in reduced current. Brighter lamp -> higher
> >> >> temperature,
> >> >> which can result in a quick failure, hopefully not very explosively.
> >> >>
> >> >> If there is no external igniter circuit, there may be one built into
> >> >> the lamp.
> >> >>
> >> >> Don't believe everything you read in Wikipedia.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
> >
> >> > Hey all,
> >> >
> >> > Thank you very much for the input, first of all. Secondly, I posted a
> >> > JPEG of the starter (labeled "ignitor" on the cannister which holds the
> >> > PCB and ciruit I am about to referrence) to ABSE on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM.
> >> > There pictured is the (failing) blue choke I replaced with a larger
> >> > choke.
> >> > The one I took out *looked* like it might be a 60 or 75 uH choke, and I
> >> > put first a 100 uH choke in its place, and finally a 130 uH that would
> >> > just barely fit into the (plastic) cannister. In testing, the choke
> >> > did
> >> > not seem to generate any heat, and my logic was as follows: if it did
> >> > cause the starter (ignitor) to overheat it would bring about the demise
> >> > of
> >> > the NTE2419 SIDAC bi-directional thyristor diode immediately to it's
> >> > side
> >> > (on the right in the JPEG) thereby shutting down the circuit. Below
> >> > the
> >> > PCB (in the JPEG) is the ballast, which I did nothing with. Since I
> >> > was
> >> > replacing a passive component with a passive component, I wasn't too
> >> > worried. Burn-in did not raise any suspicions (1/4 hour of operation
> >> > in
> >> > my workshop). I would send more photos (and try again to figure out
> >> > this
> >> > damn camera) but the light is currently in use. The experimenting I
> >> > did
> >> > with the light only seemed to show that a lower inductance choke
> >> > resulted
> >> > in a more "yellow" illumination, and a higher inductance gave a
> >> > "whiter"
> >> > light. I can bring it down if there is truly cause for concern, just
> >> > hate
> >> > to do so unnecessarilly. And there is nothing in the diagram
> >> > referrenced
> >> > above like the small circuit I was working on inside the cover of the
> >> > lamp. Don't know what to think about that...
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Dave
> >
> >> PS: Burn in was a 1/2 hour operation in my workshot, not 1/4 hour, as
> >> written above. My bad. Sorry.
> >
> > Sorry, where did you post the JPEG of your circuit?
> >
> > Changing anything in the starter shouldn't affect how the lamp runs.
> >
> > --
> > sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/

> I posted it to alt.binaries.schematics.electronics on 2/2/10 at 3:30 PM. It
> was the best picture I could get out of my camera, but is still quite
> blurry/out-of-focus.

My newsreader doesn't get alt.binaries.schematics.electronics and Google
Groups has almost no postings for that group.

Maybe upload to YouTube or one of the other public photo-hosting Websites?

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
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