sonoluminescence: sonofusion explained
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From: Angelo Campanella on 29 Sep 2009 00:47 "Szczepan" <sz.bialek(a)wp.pl> wrote in message news:h9ntg5$ftr$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... > Bubble formation/collapse are at cavitation. There are also small sparks. > Do you know why? What you call sparks are very short light flashes, about 50 picoseconds in duration. This is evidence that the bubble collapse is energetic enough to eject orbital electrons out of the middle orbits of the atoms of oxygen or hydrogen. The color of the light, I think, is in the middle of the visible spectrum, but that can be deceiving since "we only see what we can see". There can be shorter and longer wave light emissions as well. The speculation a few years ago was that there is a possibility that this sort of bubble collapse that brought the two sides (more or less) of the bubble together with such a force, that even the atomic nuclei can be thrust together with sufficient energy that "nuclear fusion" could be triggered. When that speculation got out "onto the street", more scientists and technicians tried it in their lab... One such adventurer thought he saw a positive energy increase, and the rest is history. No one could repeat his experiment, so the matter has been dropped. > "The bubbles are very small when they emit the light-about 1 micrometer in > diameter- The wavelength of visible light is about 1/2 micrometer. The bubble diameter is a variable over a cycle of ultrasound. On collapse, that diameter is almost zero, though I can imagine a collapsed site sizes to be on the order of a micron or two. > Sono- should be changed in waterluminescence. " Sono" pertains to sound. Perhaps you would like "sonoaqualuminesce". >>> In industry spark jumps between water and a metal. >>> ECM heating. >> >> Plasma formation from electron bombardment is significantly different >> than sonoluminescence. The collapse and emitting bubble remnant might be considered to have a plasma characteristic during the collapsed and emitting period. Light travels 1.5cm in 50 picoseconds, so the bubble size does not enter into the picture. It must be the total "power stroke" as in an internal combustion engine. All during the power stroke, the plasma is alive and emitting. Perhaps there is nothing further known at this time. Angelo Campanella
From: Szczepan on 29 Sep 2009 03:17 "Angelo Campanella" <a.campanella(a)att.net>wrote news:NOf0l.194479$Mh5.69995(a)bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> > Sea water luminescence is quite common. It is easily observed any night at > sea by staring at the wake off the fantail; the sea water churned up > excite microscopic sea critters to emit chemical luminescence. But that is > not the sonoluminescence, and perhaps has a different wavelength (more > green than blue. But there are process bubble formation/collapsing. In such bubbles take place the evaporation/kondensation. At condensation the small lightning appears. S* >
From: Szczepan on 29 Sep 2009 03:38 "dlzc" <dlzc1(a)cox.net> wrote news:8dafd271-c3ec-41e4-aa3d-cfdada285d02(a)a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... Dear Szczepan: On Sep 28, 11:00 am, "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote: > "N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dl...(a)cox.net> > wrotenews:zs2wm.445251$Ta5.340035(a)newsfe15.iad... > > "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote in message > >news:h9phpg$nto$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... > > >> "N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dl...(a)cox.net> wrote > >>news:3NOvm.1401$S_4.201(a)newsfe23.iad... > >>> Dear Szczepan: > > >>> "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote in message > >>>news:h9ntg5$ftr$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... > >>> ... > >>>>> No, it is not. There is no sonic-driven bubble > >>>>> formation/collapse. > > >>>> Bubble formation/collapse are at cavitation. There > >>>> are also small sparks. Do you know why? > > >>> Do you have a citation? They emit light, because, > >>> among other things, the gas laws apply. As the > >>> pressure increases, so does the temperature, > >>> until a plasma forms. (And it is more complex > >>> than this.) > > >> Thinks are rather a little different and simple. > >> In old explanations the cavitation damages were > >> caused by collapsing. Now we know that the > >> damages are caused by electrochemical corossion. > > > Again, do you have a citation? Rather than > > answer a claim, you make another one... > > It is not easy to find very old things. But the one is: http://www.springerlink.com/content/304g1j5n51145200/ > > "The proposed method of protecting impellers and > turbine linings against cavitation, which involves > painting them with a zinc paint and applying > cathodic protection from an outside direct-current > source," > >> "a zinc paint and applying cathodic protection > from an outside direct-current source," is against > electrchemical corrosion. >Which means that the plasma oxidizes exposed metals, and the zinc (and potential) is applied to retain / reattach the base metal. This same thing is done in water / sewer lines, fence posts, and so on. Neither plasma nor electrical current here. >> But is a publication made by people from Japan. > They measured the voltages and the intensity > of light. May be that I find it. > >> SEE at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cavitation.jpg > >> It is tipical electrochemical erosion. > If you have possibility or opportunity to observe > such demages you will see that they are in > zone where the formation of bubbles take place. >Which does not support your claim of electrical spark. Electrical sparks are inside the bubbles at colapsing in result of condensation. The voltage difference does the job. > >> In bubble formation zone the voltage decrease. > >> In collpsing zone increase. The prssure has not > >> to do here. > > >>>> "The bubbles are very small when they emit the > >>>> light-about 1 micrometre in diameter-depending on the > >>>> ambient fluid (e.g., water) and the gas content of the > >>>> bubble (e.g., atmospheric air)." > > >>>> Sono- should be changed in waterluminescence. > > >>> You should be charged admission. Do you think > >>> sonoluminescence only occurs in water? It has > >>> been seen to occur in silicone oil too. Probably more. > > >> May be fluidluminescence . Bat the best will be > >> the bubbleluminescence. It is not important what > >> cause the bubble formation/collapsing process. > > > How about leaving the name alone, since it is > > common ground for the rest of humanity, and > > your choices convey no more meaning? > >> Of course. Many phenomenon have names from > places where they were discovered. In nature it > take place in clouds. >No, it does not. It requires a fluid - gas interface, and high intensity sound. In clouds the small inter cloud lightning appear at condensation. > >>>>>> In idustry spark jumps between water and a metal. > >>>>>> ECM heating. > > >>>>> Plasma formation from electron bombardment is > >>>>> significantly different than sonoluminescence. > > >>>> Each small spark is like light. > > >>> Each light is not a spark. > > >> But here the electrons jump. > > > If there is light, electrons jump. Say something > > meaningful. > >> There no sophisticated phenomenon. Only the > small electric sparks. Do you know why the > voltages are different? >What sparks? As to voltages, this corresponds to the average distance between "free" electrons. When the two charged drops join together the voltage rise (the distance between "free" electrons on the surface of drop). If the voltage is high eneogh the sparks jump. >Think "piezoelectricity". "Piezoelectricity is the ability of some materials (notably crystals and certain ceramics, including bone) to generate an electric potential[1] in response to applied mechanical stress" There the stress is not necessary. The electrets are such artificial crystals. S* David A. Smith
From: Szczepan on 29 Sep 2009 03:48 "Angelo Campanella" <a.campanella(a)att.net> wrote news:h9s3hj$2jst$1(a)adenine.netfront.net... > > "Szczepan" <sz.bialek(a)wp.pl> wrote in message > news:h9ntg5$ftr$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... >> Bubble formation/collapse are at cavitation. There are also small sparks. >> Do you know why? > > What you call sparks are very short light flashes, about 50 picoseconds > in duration. This is evidence that the bubble collapse is energetic enough > to eject orbital electrons out of the middle orbits of the atoms of oxygen > or hydrogen. It is not evidence. It is a proposition. The spark jumps when the voltage difference appears. >The color of the light, I think, is in the middle of the visible spectrum, >but that can be deceiving since "we only see what we can see". There can be >shorter and longer wave light emissions as well. Like at the Lightninig. > > The speculation a few years ago was that there is a possibility that > this sort of bubble collapse that brought the two sides (more or less) of > the bubble together with such a force, that even the atomic nuclei can be > thrust together with sufficient energy that "nuclear fusion" could be > triggered. When that speculation got out "onto the street", more > scientists and technicians tried it in their lab... One such adventurer > thought he saw a positive energy increase, and the rest is history. No one > could repeat his experiment, so the matter has been dropped. The "positive energy" is also the result of the voltage changes at formation/collapsing. > >> "The bubbles are very small when they emit the light-about 1 micrometer >> in diameter- > > The wavelength of visible light is about 1/2 micrometer. The bubble > diameter is a variable over a cycle of ultrasound. On collapse, that > diameter is almost zero, though I can imagine a collapsed site sizes to be > on the order of a micron or two. > >> Sono- should be changed in waterluminescence. > > " Sono" pertains to sound. Perhaps you would like "sonoaqualuminesce". > >>>> In industry spark jumps between water and a metal. >>>> ECM heating. >>> >>> Plasma formation from electron bombardment is significantly different >>> than sonoluminescence. > > The collapse and emitting bubble remnant might be considered to have a > plasma characteristic during the collapsed and emitting period. Light > travels 1.5cm in 50 picoseconds, so the bubble size does not enter into > the picture. It must be the total "power stroke" as in an internal > combustion engine. All during the power stroke, the plasma is alive and > emitting. Perhaps there is nothing further known at this time. The voltages are known and explain everything. S*
From: dlzc on 29 Sep 2009 10:17
Dear Szczepan: On Sep 29, 12:38 am, "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote: > "dlzc" <dl...(a)cox.net> wrotenews:8dafd271-c3ec-41e4-aa3d-cfdada285d02(a)a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... > On Sep 28, 11:00 am, "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote: > > "N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dl...(a)cox.net> > > wrotenews:zs2wm.445251$Ta5.340035(a)newsfe15.iad... > > > "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote in message > > >news:h9phpg$nto$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... > > >> "N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dl...(a)cox.net> wrote > > >>news:3NOvm.1401$S_4.201(a)newsfe23.iad... > > >>> Dear Szczepan: > > > >>> "Szczepan" <sz.bia...(a)wp.pl> wrote in message > > >>>news:h9ntg5$ftr$1(a)node1.news.atman.pl... .... >> > >>>> Bubble formation/collapse are at cavitation. >> > >>>> There are also small sparks. Do you know >> > >>>> why? > >> > >>> Do you have a citation? They emit light, because, >> > >>> among other things, the gas laws apply. As the >> > >>> pressure increases, so does the temperature, >> > >>> until a plasma forms. (And it is more complex >> > >>> than this.) > >> > >> Thinks are rather a little different and simple. >> > >> In old explanations the cavitation damages were >> > >> caused by collapsing. Now we know that the >> > >> damages are caused by electrochemical corossion. > >> > > Again, do you have a citation? Rather than >> > > answer a claim, you make another one... > >> > It is not easy to find very old things. But the one is: > http://www.springerlink.com/content/304g1j5n51145200/ > >> > "The proposed method of protecting impellers and >> > turbine linings against cavitation, which involves >> > painting them with a zinc paint and applying >> > cathodic protection from an outside direct-current >> > source," > >> > "a zinc paint and applying cathodic protection >> > from an outside direct-current source," is against >> > electrchemical corrosion. > >> Which means that the plasma oxidizes exposed >> metals, and the zinc (and potential) is applied to >> retain / reattach the base metal. This same >> thing is done in water / sewer lines, fence posts, >> and so on. Neither plasma nor electrical current >> here. No response to this... >> > But is a publication made by people from Japan. >> > They measured the voltages and the intensity >> > of light. May be that I find it. > >> > SEE at this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cavitation.jpg > >> > It is tipical electrochemical erosion. >> > If you have possibility or opportunity to observe >> > such demages you will see that they are in >> > zone where the formation of bubbles take place. > > > Which does not support your claim of electrical spark. > > Electrical sparks are inside the bubbles at > colapsing in result of condensation. > The voltage difference does the job. Which angel gave you this insight? Because we have measured the temperature, and what is there is a very hot plasma. Like the surface of the Sun. And the corrosion prevention methods you pointed to (above) are to prevent oxidation and oxidative damage, not "sparks". .... >> > > How about leaving the name alone, since it is >> > > common ground for the rest of humanity, and >> > > your choices convey no more meaning? > >> > Of course. Many phenomenon have names from >> > places where they were discovered. In nature it >> > take place in clouds. > > > No, it does not. It requires a fluid - gas interface, > > and high intensity sound. > > In clouds the small inter cloud lightning appear at > condensation. Which does not address either your perverse need to change the name, or sonoluminescence. .... >> > >>>> Each small spark is like light. > >> > >>> Each light is not a spark. > >> > >> But here the electrons jump. > >> > > If there is light, electrons jump. Say something >> > > meaningful. > >> > There no sophisticated phenomenon. Only the >> > small electric sparks. Do you know why the >> > voltages are different? > > What sparks? As to voltages, this corresponds > > to the average distance between "free" electrons. > > When the two charged drops join together the > voltage rise (the distance between "free" electrons > on the surface of drop). If the voltage is high > eneogh the sparks jump. The entire fluid is conductive, and at the same potential. Adding a current flow in addition does not change the process. Compressing the bubble does *not* produce the same effect that coalescence of water drops do. > > Think "piezoelectricity". > > "Piezoelectricity is the ability of some materials > (notably crystals and certain ceramics, including > bone) to generate an electric potential[1] in > response to applied mechanical stress" > > There the stress is not necessary. The electrets > are such artificial crystals. The stress in this case is removing electrons from neutral atoms, forming a plasma. But there is no necessary potential difference, no macroscopic arc of electrons jumping, and I have wasted too much time arguing with the "fence post" you seem intent on being. David A. Smith |