the Modernization of Emacs
in [Lisp]
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From: Tom Lord on 11 Apr 2006 04:26 Gah. You're basically pointing in more or less the right direction but .... Well, yr specific suggestions are suggestive but don't go far enough and are easily dismissed with arguments like "Well, if *that's* all you want just publish a suitable .emacs file!" Which is basically what yr getting. Emacs needs work on the interaction loop, the detailed structure of buffers, the specific lisp dialect used, and the graphical display capabilities. As it stands its a handy brutish tool and a good demonstration of architectural concepts that run circles around the dominant architectures for desktop tools but it's pretty irrevocably stuck in the 1980s -- there's no way to get there, from here, short of a rewrite. Yr just scratching the surface. And in that way, I share yr frustration with the responses because it's basically just people saying they don't care what's possible and/or can't imagine themselves free to work on it and they'll take an over-literal reading of you as an excuse to dismiss. But one can imagine in the direction yr pointing and, yes, it's hard to imagine a spirit so impoverished it would turn its back on that. Yet that is nearly all one finds. Knowing some of them, I can't accept "morons". Those who have internalized a form of oppression and just "given up" -- yeah, that I can see. Bit of a difference, there. Well, unless you meant something completely different from what I'm projecting on you, anyway, -t p.s.: yr view of Bush (via yr web site) is self refuting. If yr analysis of him were correct, we'd be more aggressively taking over the Americas, not trying to fix western Asia. Easy play, there, if yr goal is world domination. Xah Lee wrote: > one bag of morons. > don't feel like dealing now. > will write off in few days. > > > maybe i'm down, > > but sometimes i wonder, > > whether my problems's because, > > i'm a outlier of mind. > > coupled with a character, > > due by a odd growth'n'faring, > > rose a difficulty, > > with the sea of 'holes, > > and the motherfucking heart, > > that's in males, demonic. > > Xah > xah(a)xahlee.org > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > > Xah Lee wrote: > > Things emacs need to change for modern world: > > > > * Change the keyboard shortcut of Copy & Paste to meta-C and meta-V > > as to be the same with all modern applications. > > * Change the undo behavior so that there is a Undo and Redo, as the > > same with all modern applications. > > * Get rid of the *scratch* buffer. > > * Make longlines-mode the default editor behavior for any file. > > > > Things emacs should do now, even though it eventually will do. > > > > * When opening a HTML document, automatically provide highlighting > > of HTML, CSS, and Javascript codes. Similarly for other multi-language > > files such as PHP, JSP, et al. This behavior must be automatic without > > requiring user to customize emacs. > > > > Possible Documentation Change Proposals > > > > * Reduce the use of the word “buffer†in the emacs > > documentation. Call it “opened file†or “unsaved documentâ€. > > * Switch the terminology of Window and Frame so it is more > > standard. That is, Emacs's “Window†should be called Panes or > > Frames. While Emacs's “Frame†should be termed Window. > > * Change the terminology of keybinding to “keyboard shortcut†> > in emacs documentation. Use the term keybinding or binding only in a > > technical context, such as in elisp documentation.
From: Tom Lord on 11 Apr 2006 04:34 Gah. You're basically pointing in more or less the right direction but .... Well, yr specific suggestions are suggestive but don't go far enough and are easily dismissed with arguments like "Well, if *that's* all you want just publish a suitable .emacs file!" Which is basically what yr getting. Emacs needs work on the interaction loop, the detailed structure of buffers, the specific lisp dialect used, and the graphical display capabilities. As it stands its a handy brutish tool and a good demonstration of architectural concepts that run circles around the dominant architectures for desktop tools but it's pretty irrevocably stuck in the 1980s -- there's no way to get there, from here, short of a rewrite. Yr just scratching the surface. And in that way, I share yr frustration with the responses because it's basically just people saying they don't care what's possible and/or can't imagine themselves free to work on it. But one can imagine in the direction yr pointing and, yes, it's hard to imagine a spirit so impoverished it would turn its back on that. Yet that is nearly all one finds. Knowing some of them, I can't accept "morons". Those who have internalized a form of oppression and just "given up" -- yeah, that I can see. Bit of a difference, there. Well, unless you meant something completely different from what I'm projecting on you, anyway, -t p.s.: yr view of Bush (via yr web site) is self refuting. If yr analysis of him were correct, we'd be more aggressively taking over the Americas, not trying to fix western Asia. Easy play, there, if yr goal is world domination. Xah Lee wrote: > one bag of morons. > don't feel like dealing now. > will write off in few days. > > > maybe i'm down, > > but sometimes i wonder, > > whether my problems's because, > > i'm a outlier of mind. > > coupled with a character, > > due by a odd growth'n'faring, > > rose a difficulty, > > with the sea of 'holes, > > and the motherfucking heart, > > that's in males, demonic. > > Xah > xah(a)xahlee.org > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > > Xah Lee wrote: > > Things emacs need to change for modern world: > > > > * Change the keyboard shortcut of Copy & Paste to meta-C and meta-V > > as to be the same with all modern applications. > > * Change the undo behavior so that there is a Undo and Redo, as the > > same with all modern applications. > > * Get rid of the *scratch* buffer. > > * Make longlines-mode the default editor behavior for any file. > > > > Things emacs should do now, even though it eventually will do. > > > > * When opening a HTML document, automatically provide highlighting > > of HTML, CSS, and Javascript codes. Similarly for other multi-language > > files such as PHP, JSP, et al. This behavior must be automatic without > > requiring user to customize emacs. > > > > Possible Documentation Change Proposals > > > > * Reduce the use of the word “buffer†in the emacs > > documentation. Call it “opened file†or “unsaved documentâ€. > > * Switch the terminology of Window and Frame so it is more > > standard. That is, Emacs's “Window†should be called Panes or > > Frames. While Emacs's “Frame†should be termed Window. > > * Change the terminology of keybinding to “keyboard shortcut†> > in emacs documentation. Use the term keybinding or binding only in a > > technical context, such as in elisp documentation.
From: Marc Tfardy on 11 Apr 2006 05:04 Burton Samograd schrieb: > "fredrik.bulow(a)gmail.com" <fredrik.bulow(a)gmail.com> writes: > >> Even beginners like having a *scratch* buffer for temporary stuff. What >> have you got against it? > > i'm thinking that having it in elisp-interaction mode is not what most > beginners want to start in, and not knowing how to change (or even > know what) a mode Beginners have to learn, learn and learn again. When someone expect a simple editor, he should take a notepad or something similar. > emacs is great, but as a tool it really takes years of dedication and > effort to understand it, Yes, but where is the problem? There are things, for which one needs years. Marc
From: Tom Lord on 11 Apr 2006 05:44 Gah. You're basically pointing in more or less the right direction but .... Well, yr specific suggestions are suggestive but don't go far enough and are easily dismissed with arguments like "Well, if *that's* all you want just publish a suitable .emacs file!" Which is basically what yr getting. Emacs needs work on the interaction loop, the detailed structure of buffers, the specific lisp dialect used, and the graphical display capabilities. As it stands its a handy brutish tool and a good demonstration of architectural concepts that run circles around the dominant architectures for desktop tools but it's pretty irrevocably stuck in the 1980s -- there's no way to get there, from here, short of a rewrite. Yr just scratching the surface. And in that way, I share yr frustration with the responses because it's basically just people saying they don't care what's possible and/or can't imagine themselves free to work on it. But one can imagine in the direction yr pointing and, yes, it's hard to imagine a spirit so impoverished it would turn its back on that. Yet that is nearly all one finds. Knowing some of them, I can't accept "morons". Those who have internalized a form of oppression and just "given up" -- yeah, that I can see. Bit of a difference, there. Well, unless you meant something completely different from what I'm projecting on you, anyway, -t p.s.: yr view of Bush (via yr web site) is self refuting. If yr analysis of him were correct, we'd be more aggressively taking over the Americas, not trying to fix western Asia. Easy play, there, if yr goal is world domination. Xah Lee wrote: > one bag of morons. > don't feel like dealing now. > will write off in few days. > > > maybe i'm down, > > but sometimes i wonder, > > whether my problems's because, > > i'm a outlier of mind. > > coupled with a character, > > due by a odd growth'n'faring, > > rose a difficulty, > > with the sea of 'holes, > > and the motherfucking heart, > > that's in males, demonic. > > Xah > xah(a)xahlee.org > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > > Xah Lee wrote: > > Things emacs need to change for modern world: > > > > * Change the keyboard shortcut of Copy & Paste to meta-C and meta-V > > as to be the same with all modern applications. > > * Change the undo behavior so that there is a Undo and Redo, as the > > same with all modern applications. > > * Get rid of the *scratch* buffer. > > * Make longlines-mode the default editor behavior for any file. > > > > Things emacs should do now, even though it eventually will do. > > > > * When opening a HTML document, automatically provide highlighting > > of HTML, CSS, and Javascript codes. Similarly for other multi-language > > files such as PHP, JSP, et al. This behavior must be automatic without > > requiring user to customize emacs. > > > > Possible Documentation Change Proposals > > > > * Reduce the use of the word “buffer†in the emacs > > documentation. Call it “opened file†or “unsaved documentâ€. > > * Switch the terminology of Window and Frame so it is more > > standard. That is, Emacs's “Window†should be called Panes or > > Frames. While Emacs's “Frame†should be termed Window. > > * Change the terminology of keybinding to “keyboard shortcut†> > in emacs documentation. Use the term keybinding or binding only in a > > technical context, such as in elisp documentation.
From: Tim Bradshaw on 11 Apr 2006 08:25
Sacha wrote: > He's got a point though, I don't think he really does. Before I start: yes, emacs is crufty in a lot of ways (horrible lisp dialect etc), yes it's left-field in lots of ways (odd key bindings for people coming from a Windowsoid background), yes it's big and complicated. Yes, yes yes. > as a newcomer to lisp, and windows user, > i found it pretty hard to have to learn emacs while learning lisp... > None of these two are trivial. Who said learning to program in a new language should be trivial? And do you *really* think that Emacs is the thing that's making it too hard to learn? Programming is a fairly intellectually hard activity, and if you're going to succeed at it then you probably won't be put off by something like Emacs - some time you're going to have to deal with J2EE, or Unix or something, and if you think that Emacs is hard & cruftily designed, then you have another think coming. I play the guitar: not, generally, very well, but well enough. Playing a musical instrument is kind of like programming: it's hard, and the tools you use are generally not perfectly designed. And two things are immediately apparent. Firstly people who try the guitar and complain because the strings are too tight, the hand position makes their wrists sore, it's just basically impossible to tune the thing right (really, it is) and any of the myriad of other things which are objectively wrong with guitars don't get very far. Secondly, of people who persist and through talent and hard work become great guitarists *very few* redesign the instrument. Not because it's a perfect design - it's clearly not - but because it's a good enough design and there are more important things to do, like playing music. Emacs is like a guitar: imperfect, hard to learn, but you can do great things with it. And, I'm glad to say, the vast majority of people who understand emacs well enough to change it realise that there isn't much point - not that such changes would not be a good thing, but because in the finite amount of time they have, changing emacs would be a less good thing than just getting on and using the flawed tool. (I'm also glad that some people do work on Emacs, just as I'm glad that there are people working on new guitar designs.) > I can't imagine any better way than emacs to frighten the newbie lisper. Anyone who wants to seriously look after Unix/Linux machines needs to be at least competent with vi, and if you think Emacs is frightening then, well. And lots of people do this, by the way. You should be glad that you don't have to learn ed any more. --tim |