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From: Sylvia Else on 15 Apr 2010 23:04 On 16/04/2010 1:45 AM, F Murtz wrote: > Sylvia Else wrote: >> On 15/04/2010 8:48 PM, Loreen wrote: >>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>> On 15/04/2010 3:39 PM, Epsilon wrote: >>>>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>>>> On 15/04/2010 12:21 PM, terryc wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> what are the anti-entrapment laws here? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> None at all. It's not a concept that's recognised in Australia. You >>>>>> do the crime you do the time (not that non-commercial copyright >>>>>> infringement is a crime in Australia). It matters not that someone >>>>>> enticed you for the purpose of catching you at it. >>>>> >>>>> I would have thought that this case could apply throughout Australia >>>>> - >>>>> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200102/ldjudgmt/jd011025/loose-1.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> . >>>> >>>> It cites Ridgeway v R which it certainly cannot overrule in Australia. >>>> >>>> http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1995/66.html >>>> >>> >>> Yes, of course. Ridgeway is the current High Court decision on >>> entrapment binding in Australia, but the later HL decision is consistent >>> with it. The point is that we do have an anti-entrapment law in >>> Australia. >> >> It's perhaps an issue of definition. I wouldn't regard Ridgeway as an >> authority for the existence of an anti-entrapment law. If a police >> officer puts a $100 note on the ground (having previously obtained >> council permission so to do, of course), then waits until you pick it >> up, and follows you until you spend it, then you can be charged with >> theft, and the charge will stick no matter how loud you scream >> entrapment. >> >> Sylvia. > It would be fun in that scenario to put it in your pocket and put a lost > property notice in the local paper which would probably cover you > legally.(in reality they would not wait that long) As a way of entrapping people it certainly wouldn't be very efficient. It was only an example for the purpose of the discussion. Syulvia.
From: Sylvia Else on 15 Apr 2010 23:06 On 16/04/2010 8:40 AM, Epsilon wrote: > terryc wrote: >> On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:40:35 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote: >> >> >>> As far as I can see, a conviction. There's no unlawful conduct by the >>> police to be considered. There's no abuse of process. The accused >>> comes across a scenario that they might reasonably encounter without >>> police involvement, and then exploits it unlawfully. I can't see why >>> a court would have any problem with the charge or the evidence. >> >> If I pick up $100 dollars of the ground, which law directs what I >> have to do with it? > > There is no such law. But you need to be aware of the criminal law about > theft by finding ie if you find something (eg on the street) and pick it > up, it still belongs to the true owner. You need to make some effort to > see if the true owner can be found. With a $100 note, you wouldn't have > to do much. You might approach the house or shop nearly, and say that > you have found a sum of money (or whatever) and leave your 'phone > number. If no-one claims it, it's yours because the law give you the > greatest rights to it after the true owner who can't be found. Your problem would be trying to decide who, if anyone, amongst the many claimants, was the real owner. Sylvia.
From: Loreen on 16 Apr 2010 06:07 Sylvia Else wrote: > On 16/04/2010 8:40 AM, Epsilon wrote: >> terryc wrote: >>> On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:40:35 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote: >>> >>> >>>> As far as I can see, a conviction. There's no unlawful conduct by >>>> the police to be considered. There's no abuse of process. The >>>> accused comes across a scenario that they might reasonably >>>> encounter without police involvement, and then exploits it >>>> unlawfully. I can't see why a court would have any problem with >>>> the charge or the evidence. >>> >>> If I pick up $100 dollars of the ground, which law directs what I >>> have to do with it? >> >> There is no such law. But you need to be aware of the criminal law >> about theft by finding ie if you find something (eg on the street) >> and pick it up, it still belongs to the true owner. You need to make >> some effort to see if the true owner can be found. With a $100 note, >> you wouldn't have to do much. You might approach the house or shop >> nearly, and say that you have found a sum of money (or whatever) and >> leave your 'phone number. If no-one claims it, it's yours because >> the law give you the greatest rights to it after the true owner who >> can't be found. > > Your problem would be trying to decide who, if anyone, amongst the > many claimants, was the real owner. That's best left to the person claiming to prove that they were the true owner. Not impossible, but it tends to weed out mosts claimants, especially those who didn't know how much was involved.
From: The Old Bloke on 17 Apr 2010 08:51
Some years ago I found a 14 diamond ring on Moreton Isd, Qld. There was a sole police officer on the island then and I chose not to tell him. On arrival back in Brissie (the next day) I had the ring valued ($8000) and then went to the Brissie Police with it. They took the ring, and gave me a form which, amongst other conditions said that the cops would not advise me if the owner was found ! I was told that I could claim the ring if it went unclaimed for 2 months. I was annoyed that the cops did not have to tell me if the ring was claimed. So to their much annoyance I photographed the cop and the documents. I asked the cop what would stop the cops pocketing the ring. He was annoyed. At 3 months I rang the cops and was quickly told the ring was unclaimed, and I legally became the owner. On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:45:33 +1000, F Murtz <haggisz(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >Sylvia Else wrote: >> On 15/04/2010 8:48 PM, Loreen wrote: >>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>> On 15/04/2010 3:39 PM, Epsilon wrote: >>>>> Sylvia Else wrote: >>>>>> On 15/04/2010 12:21 PM, terryc wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> what are the anti-entrapment laws here? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> None at all. It's not a concept that's recognised in Australia. You >>>>>> do the crime you do the time (not that non-commercial copyright >>>>>> infringement is a crime in Australia). It matters not that someone >>>>>> enticed you for the purpose of catching you at it. >>>>> >>>>> I would have thought that this case could apply throughout Australia >>>>> - >>>>> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200102/ldjudgmt/jd011025/loose-1.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> . >>>> >>>> It cites Ridgeway v R which it certainly cannot overrule in Australia. >>>> >>>> http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/HCA/1995/66.html >>> >>> Yes, of course. Ridgeway is the current High Court decision on >>> entrapment binding in Australia, but the later HL decision is consistent >>> with it. The point is that we do have an anti-entrapment law in >>> Australia. >> >> It's perhaps an issue of definition. I wouldn't regard Ridgeway as an >> authority for the existence of an anti-entrapment law. If a police >> officer puts a $100 note on the ground (having previously obtained >> council permission so to do, of course), then waits until you pick it >> up, and follows you until you spend it, then you can be charged with >> theft, and the charge will stick no matter how loud you scream entrapment. >> >> Sylvia. >It would be fun in that scenario to put it in your pocket and put a lost >property notice in the local paper which would probably cover you >legally.(in reality they would not wait that long) |