A constant speed of light in all reference frames? Surely you can't be serious. [Physics]

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From: mpalenik on 15 Feb 2010 23:18

On Feb 15, 11:13 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote:
> "mpalenik" <markpale...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bfa9b67b-1e0f-43f1-9b46-1a3dc9027e5b(a)c28g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > If you have people that live on a little, flat world
> > sitting in our 3 dimensional space, who can only percieve the things
> > that exist inside of their little 2 dimensional world, when something
> > rotates into that third dimension, they'll go "what the heck just
> > happened? That doesn't look like any rotation I've ever seen."
>
> Hehehe .. it's so fun stirring up flatlanders like that, just to see the
> expressions on the flat little faces. It's the same sort of fun as cow
> tipping .. only they don't go "moo" :):):)

Well, I wouldn't know, since I grew up in the city.

From: BURT on 16 Feb 2010 22:49

On Feb 16, 7:22 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 16, 9:26 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > My tabletop is not in a spaceship, and there is no train on the
> > > > spaceship.
>
> > > > Here is my question. Lets just take the first half this time:
>
> > > > 1. We place two atomic clocks on a tabletop at the centre of a 1 metre
> > > > ruler. We separate them very slowly so they are at either end of the one
> > > > metre ruler. We record the time taken (according to the clocks) for
> > > > light
> > > > to
> > > > travel 1 metre in a vacuum. Will the speed of light measured in this
> > > > manner
> > > > be c or some other value?
>
> > > Is the aether at rest with respect to the table top?
>
> > > _________________________________
> > > No. The tabletop is moving at speed of v relative to the ether.
>
> > The the tabletop is the train.
>
> > __________________________________
> > No, a tabletop is a tabletop. Its not a train. And you haven't answered my
> > question. Will the speed of light measured in this manner be c or some other
> > value? It is a pretty simple question. Why won't you answer it?
>
> How is the tabletop able to move at 'v' with respect to the aether?
>
> It's on a train.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nothing shrinks. There are no flat atoms. The aether is stationary for
space but flows for energy..

Mitch Raemsch

From: Peter Webb on 16 Feb 2010 00:56

"mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4fd7fda0-5219-4728-89ed-00407156d2cb(a)k11g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 1:08 am, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:285f58e2-a468-4257-8051-fa7249dc0e72(a)m35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 12:35 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:e03b248e-5f49-4e80-9c4c-d542dd7e269e(a)k5g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 15, 12:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > As I have said at least three times now,
> > > you cannot determine the speed of the aether.
> > > ____________________________________
>
> > > You said light moves at a constant velocity relative to the ether. So
> > > why
> > > can't you measure the speed of light, see how much it differs from c,
> > > and
> > > the difference is your speed relative to the ether? Why doesn't that
> > > procedure determine the speed of the ether?
>
> > How do you measure your speed relative to the ether?
>
> > As I have said at least four times now, you can't measure the speed of
> > the aether. If you can't measure the speed of the aether you can't
> > measure your speed relative to the aether.
>
> > Do you want to ask this same question again so I can answer it for a
> > fifth time?
>
> > ______________________________________
> > I just described how you *can* measure your speed relative to the ether.
> > You
> > measure the speed of light, see how much it differs from c, and the
> > difference is your speed relative to the ether. That is because
> > according
> > to
> > you, light moves at a constant speed relative to the ether. So if you
> > measure the speed of light, and subtract if from c, that must give you
> > your
> > speed relative to the ether.
>
> > So say you measure that light is moving at 2 x 10^8 m/s relative to you.
> > We
> > know it is moving at 3 x 10^8 m/s relative to the ether, therefore you
> > are
> > moving at 3 x 10^8 m/s - 2 x 10^8 m/s = 1 x 10^8 m/s relative to the
> > ether.
>
> > Why doesn't that procedure determine your speed relative to the ether?
>
> Not sure this link will work, but this is a link to the two posts I
> made having to do with the train and the embankment and the time on
> the clocks and the lightning strikes.
>
> I realize you are not going to understand what I have written, but
> this is why the light is not detected at other than 'c' for either the
> Observers on the embankment or the Observers on the train:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thre...
>
> _____________________________________________
> I didn't ask about trains, or embankments, or anything like that. I asked
> you why you can't measure the relative speed of the ether by the simple
> process I described above. Why can't you? Or can you?

In order to answer the question I used Einstein's train gedanken with
water/aether at rest with respect to the embankment.

_________________________
You didn't answer the question. Why doesn't the procedure I have described
above provide the relative speed of the ether? Or does it?

From: Peter Webb on 16 Feb 2010 00:57

"mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:70e0e369-7438-4571-b8c6-43b05ca13546(a)h12g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 1:18 am, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc37a395-3b16-4471-9964-d9db63246254(a)v20g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 12:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > As I have said at least three times now,
> > you cannot determine the speed of the aether.
> > ____________________________________
>
> > You said light moves at a constant velocity relative to the ether. So
> > why
> > can't you measure the speed of light, see how much it differs from c,
> > and
> > the difference is your speed relative to the ether? Why doesn't that
> > procedure determine the speed of the ether?
>
> How do you measure the speed of light and how do you determine it is
> different from 'c'? Are you using a mirror or synchronized clocks?
>
> _______________________________
> Use whatever measuring apparatus you like.
>
> What you are incapable of understanding is everything is under the
> effects of the aether. As I said in one of my original posts which it
> would help you understand the point I am making. The atomic clocks the
> Observers on the train are using are offset because of their state
> with respect to the aether.
>
> So, I will ask you again. How is the light to be measured?
>
> ________________________________
> You must already have some means of measuring light speed, or you couldn't
> claim the speed was constant relative to the ether. Use that.

It is all explained in the posts you refuse to read.

________________________
Read them all. Didn't see it, sorry. Perhaps you could repost your answer.
Tx

From: Peter Webb on 16 Feb 2010 00:59

"mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:48499780-10ed-4377-b4cf-0bde5b5d298f(a)28g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 1:06 am, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:21c1d72e-9898-436a-ba4e-05a849fc4efc(a)g8g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 12:35 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:e03b248e-5f49-4e80-9c4c-d542dd7e269e(a)k5g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 15, 12:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > As I have said at least three times now,
> > > you cannot determine the speed of the aether.
> > > ____________________________________
>
> > > You said light moves at a constant velocity relative to the ether. So
> > > why
> > > can't you measure the speed of light, see how much it differs from c,
> > > and
> > > the difference is your speed relative to the ether? Why doesn't that
> > > procedure determine the speed of the ether?
>
> > How do you measure your speed relative to the ether?
>
> > As I have said at least four times now, you can't measure the speed of
> > the aether. If you can't measure the speed of the aether you can't
> > measure your speed relative to the aether.
>
> > Do you want to ask this same question again so I can answer it for a
> > fifth time?
>
> > ______________________________________
> > I just described how you *can* measure your speed relative to the ether.
> > You
> > measure the speed of light, see how much it differs from c, and the
> > difference is your speed relative to the ether.
>
> How do you measure the speed of light so it is not 'c'?
>
> _________________________________
> Anyway you like. Aren't you claiming that the speed of light is a constant
> relative to the speed of the ether, and not constant relative to the
> observer? So you can measure the speed of light in some way, to make this
> claim at all, right? So why not measure it, see how much it departs from
> c,
> and then the difference is the speed of the ether.
>
> Why won't that work?

I am asking you to state how it is you want to measure the speed of
light? Are you using mirrors?

____________________
No. I am using a metre ruler and two clocks, one at each end. I synchronise
the clocks, separate them by a metre, and note the difference between
arrival and departure time. The difference between this and c is my speed
relative to the ether. Why won't this work?