Advice to BSEE juniors and seniors...
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From: krw on 18 Apr 2010 23:06 On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT), brent <bulegoge(a)columbus.rr.com> wrote: >On Apr 18, 6:32�pm, chris w <ch...(a)smartjack.com> wrote: >> I've been interviewing a few new BSEE graduates for a junior engineer >> position, and based strictly on what we're looking for, here is some >> random advice to juniors/seniors: >> >> Learn a real design program like Altium. �Eagle is ok, but I think >> downloading the eval version and creating a few small projects would >> be valuable. �Create the parts in the library, capture the schematic, >> layout the board, generate the gerbers and send them thru freedfm.com >> until they pass. �Maybe even send them to someplace like Advanced PCB >> which has deals for students. �Knowing current tools is important. �I >> think you're much more likely to use something like Altium than Spice >> or Matlab (which are also good to know). >> >> Which brings me to my next suggestion-- do some hobby projects on your >> own. �Take one of your interests, look at some projects on the >> internet, and adapt one of them to create something original on your >> own. �It gives you something to talk about at your interview, and >> shows that you have a real interest in electrical engineering. �Maybe >> even bring it with you to the meeting. �It doesn't have to be >> elaborate, but you should understand it well, and be able to talk >> about it with confidence. >> >> Senior design projects are also good discussion topics. �You should be >> able to talk about what you personally contributed. �What tools were >> used, how did the device work, what challenges did you overcome, etc. >> In my recent interviews, it often seemed like someone else in the >> group must have done all the work because the candidate could hardly >> describe what the project did. >> >> Learn how to solder. �You should own a decent soldering iron, and be >> able assemble prototypes which used SMD down to 0805 or 0603. �If you >> looking for a job that does any sort of design, then chances are >> you're going to have to do some assembly/troubleshooting of your own >> prototypes. >> >> Get some experience with current microcontrollers. �I have a >> preference for Microchip, but Atmel or an ARM variant would also be >> good. �I know teaching the 68HC11 still has value, but knowing parts >> that are more commonly used for new designs will make you seem more >> experienced and valuable. >> >> Networking is important. �Lots of new products these day have some >> connection to the Internet. �Understand TCP/IP and ethernet. �MAC >> addresses, netmasks, ARP, default routes, NAT... �Even getting into >> the upper layers might be good, especially HTTP. >> >> Linux would be nice to know. �Embedded Linux continues to grow. >> Knowing how to compile a linux kernel, build a file system, or >> whatever would be a useful skill. >> >> Anyway, those are just my opinions. �I don't think any of these >> suggestions take a lot of effort, but they would go a long way to >> helping you make a good impression if you're looking for a position in >> a design group. >> >> -chris > >Good advice. > >Personally, I would not be so concerned with how to use a particular >software package but would make sure of three things: > >1. Did they have proper exposure to theoretical courses in college? Assuming the candidate is from a decent college this shouldn't be a big problem. >2. Can they think. This is hard to quantify, but ultimately , it is >the most important thing. Assuming a design job (not all are), can they design. Have they? Show me. >3. Do they Building things - figuring out how things work. >Everything from their car to how an appliance works. They must have >the "I'll be dipped if I would pay someone a dime to do something I >can figure out myself" attitude. Except that I want them to pay to get their car fixed. I want them *here* solving my problems. ;-)
From: krw on 18 Apr 2010 23:22 On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 16:40:03 -0700, D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be(a)seen.com> wrote: >Hi Brent, > >brent wrote: >> Good advice. >> >> Personally, I would not be so concerned with how to use a particular >> software package but would make sure of three things: >> >> 1. Did they have proper exposure to theoretical courses in college? > >That's usually easy to verify. > >> 2. Can they think. This is hard to quantify, but ultimately , it is >> the most important thing. > >Agreed. I'm not a fan of "tests" in interviews. Having >said that, I *do* heartily believe that you can pose a >problem to an applicant (even if that problem *looks* >like a "test" -- write a routine that does... design a >circuit that does...) and then ask them to explain their >solution. See what criteria they used to come up with their >solution. Ask them how they could improve upon it. Ask >what it;s strengths and weaknesses might be. Etc. I'd been on so many interviews where they didn't give a test that I didn't even prepare myself for a test, until my last one. The other engineer gave me a bunch of analog circuits to analyze, even though they wanted a digital guy (I've done nothing but analog since I've been there ;). I was kinda set back on my heels, but did alright. It would have been an easy "test" if I'd expected it. Maybe I was tired, too (didn't get in until 2:00AM and didn't have anything to eat since the previous noon). Every other interview, since the interview from hell, in college, asked what I'd designed and how it worked (and, of course, *my* responsibilities). >There are myriad "simple problems" that you can pose that >don't *act* like "tests" yet allow you to examine the >individual's thought processes *and* attitude -- is he/she >intimidated by a problem being thrust into his/her lap or >does he/she relish the challenge, etc. Yep. That's how I always interviewed candidates. 95% of the interviews I've been on have been the same. I loved interviewing because there was always a challenge and something to learn (The Kodak high-end ink-jet printer interview was a lot of fun). >I like seeing how people can adapt to problems from the >"wrong" perspective (e.g., thinking outside the box). >Do they dismiss the problem as "unsolvable"? Do they >bombard me with "Why would you want to do that?" (which >I see as a stalling tactic -- "Why do *I* have to justify >an approach to you? *You* are the one being tasked with >the problem" -- and possibly indicative of someone who will >grumble later about some "decision from management" and >not give 100% towards trying to *meet* that goal) Even better if some holes are left open and let them ask for them to be filled in. >> 3. Do they Building things - figuring out how things work. >> Everything from their car to how an appliance works. They must have >> the "I'll be dipped if I would pay someone a dime to do something I >> can figure out myself" attitude. > >This is a special/different breed you're trying to identify, >here. It may not be necessary for the position that is >being filled. Not really. Engineering is all about how things work, even non-design positions. >OTOH, I am seriously impressed by folks who do (or think >about) things that are *out* of the ordinary. E.g., don't >try to impress me with a digital alarm clock that you >*assembled*. Rather, show me how you used some OTS parts >to design a clock that counted *backwards* -- and, tell me >*why* you felt the need to do so! You'd hire SkyDuck? ;-) >I would add: > >4. Try to assess their honesty. Yep. Nothing else is as important. >I am frequently disturbed by how often folks pawn off >the works of others as their own. It's fairly obvious >when you ask them *probing* questions about some of >their claimed "accomplishments" -- and they can't come >up with the "details". Check references, too. >I once had an applicant proudly present a "listing" of >one of his "programs" under the pretense that *he* had >done it. After looking at the code and recognizing the >product in question, imagine his surprise when I asked >him, "What part of this did <John Doe> do?" (naming the >actual designer of the product -- "Oops! I bet you >weren't expecting to encounter someone who *knows* ><John> andn is familiar with *his* work...?" :< ) Oops! >5. Try to assess how "multi-dimensional" the applicant >is. Is he/she a "one-trick pony" who will help solve some >*particular* need of your organization? Or, can he apply >ideas from one technology/area to other areas to give you >"future benefits" as your needs evolve. Depends on whether you have one trick to solve or you're looking for a generalist.
From: Joerg on 20 Apr 2010 13:30 Joel Koltner wrote: > "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message > news:834fliFo3bU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> Much more dangerous: Entitlements and pampering to the hilt. When I >> needed anything fancy in electronics I had to work my butt off to be >> able to buy it. Meat factory and similar pleasant jobs. Today's kids >> get cell phones, TVs, gadgets, even whole cars with doing anything. So >> often they just don't do anything. > > You certainly have a point there (and I agree with and like Phil's > quote), but to an extent as technology progresses everyone is going to > have more just "handed" to them. Didn't your bicycle come from your > parents rather than your having to walk everywhere? Didn't you have > more time to experiment with electronics because you weren't chopping > wood for a fireplaces for an hour every night after school? Didn't you > have electric lights rather than candles? Hence, while I wouldn't go > around just buying a kid today a fancy ham radio or a car, I think > you're doing a kid more harm than good if you don't at least hand them > an old computer to play with (and I mean one running Windows, not a > Commodore 64! :-) -- Although that'd be cool to hand them that too: "See > what you could do in 64K? Today 'Hello world!' takes over a megabyte!") > That's true, and we all would not be here if we had to chop wood all day long or work on the farm. I always took school for granted, not thinking about the kids 200 years before me where child labor was the standard and often only rich kids could go to school at all. Yes, my first real bicycle was a Christmas present from my parents. However, that was then also my mode of transportation to school which was about five miles away in the next town. Later I wanted a 10-speed and that I had to earn. It's not that I detest hand-me-downs to kids, on the contrary. But what I see today is that kids get just about everything, they essentially have to earn nothing, it's all given to them on a silver platter. Worst case on the parent's credit cards. > Heck, I doubt Jim Thompson would be any better of a designer today if > his dad *didn't* have the TV repair shop and hence he had easy access to > all the discrete components. Indeed, maybe he would have ended up an > archtect after all if that were the case... :-) > >> In hindsight I am thankful to my dad that he did not simply plunk down >> $400 so I could buy a used ham radio transceiver. > > My first big purchase like that was a Taiwanese 35MHz oscilloscope, $500 > from JDR Microdevices... earned working at McDonalds for $3.35/hour. > There I made more, about $4-5 in the 70's. But it was back-breaking work at a meat factory. Heaving Italian style salami into smoker room carts, strings of three and then 10-12 of those strings on a wooden bar. Well over 50lbs total and you had to push that up above shoulder height and then into notches on the cart, while letting of some Sumo wrestler scream. All day long. Back in those days I could have knocked a school bully straight out of his boots with one hit :-) > ---Joel > > P.S. -- There's some well-heeled amateur radio club where, when a kid > passes his novice license exam, they'll buy him or her whichever > handheld radio they'd like. Whaddaya think -- too much reward for the > amount of effort required? Or no? To be honest, I don't think that's a good thing. If a kid comes from a very poor household it's ok to discreetly and quietly (meaning anonymously) lend a financial hand, but not a blanket entitlement. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: chris w on 19 Apr 2010 01:08 On Apr 18, 5:40 pm, brent <buleg...(a)columbus.rr.com> wrote: > Personally, I would not be so concerned with how to use a particular > software package but would make sure of three things: Agreed, but it seems most of the candidates we talked to couldn't layout a PCB. The ability to read a schematic, understand a BOM, navigate Mouser/Digikey/Newark/* to select parts, layout a simple pcb, and assemble prototype boards all seem like things someone with a BSEE should be able to do. > 1. Did they have proper exposure to theoretical courses in college? In general, I would rather hear how they used what they learned in classes to build things to know they took a DSP class, or two digital design classes. I'll take for granted they took the theory-- now tell me if you tried to apply it to anything. > 2. Can they think. This is hard to quantify, but ultimately , it is > the most important thing. > > 3. Do they Building things - figuring out how things work. > Everything from their car to how an appliance works. They must have > the "I'll be dipped if I would pay someone a dime to do something I > can figure out myself" attitude. Great points. I've too often worked with that certain someone who had to be shown every step. I want to be a team player too, and if I'm really stuck, it's great to have someone to bounce your problems off of, but sometimes you just want to say, "I've barely got time to do my job, let alone yours too". With an entry level engineer, I think it's usually pretty easy to tell how good they are at problem solving by asking the probing questions about their projects. I haven't resorted to any sort of "test" questions. -chris
From: TerryKing on 19 Apr 2010 04:30
These are good indicators of many of the other issues: >> 3. Do they Build things - figuring out how things work. Everything from their car to how an appliance works. They must have the "I'll be dipped if I would pay someone a dime to do something I can figure out myself" attitude. >>5. Try to assess how "multi-dimensional" the applicant is. Is he/she a "one-trick pony" who will help solve some *particular* need of your organization? Or, can he apply ideas from one technology/area to other areas to give you "future benefits" as your needs evolve. I believe all the really interesting and challenging designs / projects are multidisciplinary. I would ask, "If we need you to do a design with some analog, digital, microcontroller and probably DSP components, applied to an area that you have no background in, such as real-time analysis of Volcanic Ash and Smoke from an airplane, how would you go about learning about the new area?? I'd want to hear a mixture of online, database, library, usenet, PLUS "I'd walk down the hall and talk to people and ask their advice". They have to be able to personally CONNECT, not sit in an office. And I'd ask, "What did you build yourself when you were 10 years old? What did you learn on your own when you were 12 years old? What stuff did you drive around and buy when you were 17 years old? If you had 4 weeks off to do some personal project, what would it be? I'd ask, If you come up with a proposal for a solution, and some one says, "You're just naive about this", is that Good or Bad?? Sigh.. Last night I led a meeting to organize a "Community Workshop" group at a huge new University in the Middle East (http:// www.kaust.edu.sa). Like this: http://kcomm.wikispaces.com/CommunityWorkShop Not too great a turnout.. And where were the enthusiastic guys from? The guy who had spent a day searching through Jeddah, with no Arabic, finally finding 4 shops with actual component-level parts and chips: (Bangladesh). The guy who showed us intricate wood carvings, with real artistic merit: ( Pakistan). The guy who is building MEMS motors, but waiting for that critial machine: (Britain). The guy who is laying out and ordering installing all the core Lab equipment, CNC machine shop, Glass Shop, etc. who is forcing machines through Saudi customs, marking the mounting holes on the floor, asking us what CAD software we want on the lab computers: (China). Which country removed the shops from most of it's high schools in the 90's, reallocating those resources to Computer Literacy, with classes labeled "Technology" in which our sons and daughters learn how to use Microsoft Office. (USA). GGrrrrr..... This Summer I'm building a metalworking Forge with my Grandchildren... PS: READ THIS! http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/0143117467/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271665771&sr=8-1 |