Advice to BSEE juniors and seniors...
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From: Joerg on 19 Apr 2010 21:51 Phil Hobbs wrote: > mpm wrote: >> On Apr 19, 2:40 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> Nico Coesel wrote: >>>> Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>> Nico Coesel wrote: >>>>>> chris w <ch...(a)smartjack.com> wrote: >>>>>>> I've been interviewing a few new BSEE graduates for a junior >>>>>>> engineer >>>>>>> position, and based strictly on what we're looking for, here is some >>>>>>> random advice to juniors/seniors: >>>>>>> Get some experience with current microcontrollers. I have a >>>>>>> preference for Microchip, but Atmel or an ARM variant would also be >>>>>>> good. I know teaching the 68HC11 still has value, but knowing parts >>>>>> Most of the basics are still the same. >>>>>>> Networking is important. Lots of new products these day have some >>>>>>> connection to the Internet. Understand TCP/IP and ethernet. MAC >>>>>>> addresses, netmasks, ARP, default routes, NAT... Even getting into >>>>>>> the upper layers might be good, especially HTTP. >>>>>>> Linux would be nice to know. Embedded Linux continues to grow. >>>>>>> Knowing how to compile a linux kernel, build a file system, or >>>>>>> whatever would be a useful skill. >>>>>> Engineers who know about analog design, programming, digital >>>>>> circuitry >>>>>> (programmabe logic / FPGA perhaps), Linux and networking are very >>>>>> very >>>>>> scarse. Usually an engineer masters a few areas. The biggest >>>>>> challenge >>>>>> is to put a good team together. >>>>> I never had a problem putting teams together. BUT, the average age of >>>>> such teams was usually well over 40. Companies that think that >>>>> everyone >>>>> over 35 is past prime are going to face one project failure after >>>>> another. >>>> I agree altough its nice to have some youngsters around. We have some >>>> interns working at my employer at the moment. They usually come up >>>> with interesting ideas and new methods. One of them brought quite a >>>> handy logic analyzer: >>>> http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/products.php?pdn=1&produ.... >>>> >>> Oh yeah, young people have fresh ideas and we also have an obligation to >>> groom the next generation. It makes no sense if we design cool stuff, >>> some day end up in a nursing home and then ... poof ... it's all gone. >>> >>> What frustrates me at times is how quickly young folks give up when they >>> don't immediately understand a circuit. Once I had an intern sit in on >>> one of my design reviews. From the facial expressions it became clear >>> that the other guys (none of them being from the analog world) >>> understood the stuff but the intern absolutely didn't. So afterwards I >>> offered to explain in detail, and that I wouldn't bill the client for >>> the time that would take. The answer was "no thanks, this stuff is way >>> over my head" :-( >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, Joerg >>> >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>> >>> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >>> Use another domain or send PM.- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >> I must admit, waaay back in the day, for the life of me I could not >> understand how a four-quandrant multiplier worked. >> I knew how to test it, and tell when it wasn't working, but to say I >> truly understood it -- nope. >> Still not sure I do, honestly. (?) It was an IC we used in a video >> application. Would have been 1985-ish? >> >> The Sr. Engineer did exactly as you say. >> He handed me some materials, and a working circuit, and pointed me to >> the corner for awhile. >> I guess I just had a total mental block, because we finally gave up. >> It was enough (for the intern position I had at the time) to just be >> able to detect when things weren't working. >> Did not really NEED to know precisely why. >> >> -mpm > > I don't know if it can be taught, but it can certainly be strangled at > birth by too much empty praise and too much entertainment. > Much more dangerous: Entitlements and pampering to the hilt. When I needed anything fancy in electronics I had to work my butt off to be able to buy it. Meat factory and similar pleasant jobs. Today's kids get cell phones, TVs, gadgets, even whole cars with doing anything. So often they just don't do anything. In hindsight I am thankful to my dad that he did not simply plunk down $400 so I could buy a used ham radio transceiver. I had to earn every penny of that in a factory during school break. There was a clear choice: Having fun and not being able to buy the thing, or working and being able to. > Ever since I was a kid, I haven't been able stand to be unclear in my > mind about things I care about--it affects me like having a pebble in my > shoe. I also am not satisfied by making up something plausible...I have > to kick all four tires good and hard, and am still on the lookout for > reasons that I might be wrong about it. > > I remember wanting to build a tube-type audio amplifier (about 1970, > when I was about 11) and while I could wire one up correctly, I couldn't > figure out how to design it, and that made me *nuts*. I went away and > read and thought, and after awhile I could do it. (Most of the reading > was data books and app notes, plus various ARRL handbooks.) > With my first tube amp I made a hole in the ceiling plaster. Found out the hard way there there is such a thing as ESR for capacitors. Of course, I absolutely had to have the biggest honking tube amp the town had ever seen and at around a kilowatt one of the electrolytics decided to take a hike. I could only afford 15 of those and I guess that was a bit skimpy. > That attribute and a lively curiosity has taken me to some pretty > interesting places in technology, among other things. If you have a kid > that refuses to give up, don't entertain him, challenge him. > Certainly true. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 19 Apr 2010 22:17 On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:51:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Phil Hobbs wrote: >> mpm wrote: >>> On Apr 19, 2:40 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> Nico Coesel wrote: >>>>> Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> Nico Coesel wrote: >>>>>>> chris w <ch...(a)smartjack.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> I've been interviewing a few new BSEE graduates for a junior >>>>>>>> engineer >>>>>>>> position, and based strictly on what we're looking for, here is some >>>>>>>> random advice to juniors/seniors: >>>>>>>> Get some experience with current microcontrollers. I have a >>>>>>>> preference for Microchip, but Atmel or an ARM variant would also be >>>>>>>> good. I know teaching the 68HC11 still has value, but knowing parts >>>>>>> Most of the basics are still the same. >>>>>>>> Networking is important. Lots of new products these day have some >>>>>>>> connection to the Internet. Understand TCP/IP and ethernet. MAC >>>>>>>> addresses, netmasks, ARP, default routes, NAT... Even getting into >>>>>>>> the upper layers might be good, especially HTTP. >>>>>>>> Linux would be nice to know. Embedded Linux continues to grow. >>>>>>>> Knowing how to compile a linux kernel, build a file system, or >>>>>>>> whatever would be a useful skill. >>>>>>> Engineers who know about analog design, programming, digital >>>>>>> circuitry >>>>>>> (programmabe logic / FPGA perhaps), Linux and networking are very >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> scarse. Usually an engineer masters a few areas. The biggest >>>>>>> challenge >>>>>>> is to put a good team together. >>>>>> I never had a problem putting teams together. BUT, the average age of >>>>>> such teams was usually well over 40. Companies that think that >>>>>> everyone >>>>>> over 35 is past prime are going to face one project failure after >>>>>> another. >>>>> I agree altough its nice to have some youngsters around. We have some >>>>> interns working at my employer at the moment. They usually come up >>>>> with interesting ideas and new methods. One of them brought quite a >>>>> handy logic analyzer: >>>>> http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/products.php?pdn=1&produ.... >>>>> >>>> Oh yeah, young people have fresh ideas and we also have an obligation to >>>> groom the next generation. It makes no sense if we design cool stuff, >>>> some day end up in a nursing home and then ... poof ... it's all gone. >>>> >>>> What frustrates me at times is how quickly young folks give up when they >>>> don't immediately understand a circuit. Once I had an intern sit in on >>>> one of my design reviews. From the facial expressions it became clear >>>> that the other guys (none of them being from the analog world) >>>> understood the stuff but the intern absolutely didn't. So afterwards I >>>> offered to explain in detail, and that I wouldn't bill the client for >>>> the time that would take. The answer was "no thanks, this stuff is way >>>> over my head" :-( >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, Joerg >>>> >>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>> >>>> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >>>> Use another domain or send PM.- Hide quoted text - >>>> >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> >>> I must admit, waaay back in the day, for the life of me I could not >>> understand how a four-quandrant multiplier worked. >>> I knew how to test it, and tell when it wasn't working, but to say I >>> truly understood it -- nope. >>> Still not sure I do, honestly. (?) It was an IC we used in a video >>> application. Would have been 1985-ish? >>> >>> The Sr. Engineer did exactly as you say. >>> He handed me some materials, and a working circuit, and pointed me to >>> the corner for awhile. >>> I guess I just had a total mental block, because we finally gave up. >>> It was enough (for the intern position I had at the time) to just be >>> able to detect when things weren't working. >>> Did not really NEED to know precisely why. >>> >>> -mpm >> >> I don't know if it can be taught, but it can certainly be strangled at >> birth by too much empty praise and too much entertainment. >> > >Much more dangerous: Entitlements and pampering to the hilt. When I >needed anything fancy in electronics I had to work my butt off to be >able to buy it. Meat factory and similar pleasant jobs. Today's kids get >cell phones, TVs, gadgets, even whole cars with doing anything. So often >they just don't do anything. > >In hindsight I am thankful to my dad that he did not simply plunk down >$400 so I could buy a used ham radio transceiver. I had to earn every >penny of that in a factory during school break. There was a clear >choice: Having fun and not being able to buy the thing, or working and >being able to. > > >> Ever since I was a kid, I haven't been able stand to be unclear in my >> mind about things I care about--it affects me like having a pebble in my >> shoe. I also am not satisfied by making up something plausible...I have >> to kick all four tires good and hard, and am still on the lookout for >> reasons that I might be wrong about it. >> >> I remember wanting to build a tube-type audio amplifier (about 1970, >> when I was about 11) and while I could wire one up correctly, I couldn't >> figure out how to design it, and that made me *nuts*. I went away and >> read and thought, and after awhile I could do it. (Most of the reading >> was data books and app notes, plus various ARRL handbooks.) >> > >With my first tube amp I made a hole in the ceiling plaster. Found out >the hard way there there is such a thing as ESR for capacitors. Of >course, I absolutely had to have the biggest honking tube amp the town >had ever seen and at around a kilowatt one of the electrolytics decided >to take a hike. I could only afford 15 of those and I guess that was a >bit skimpy. > > >> That attribute and a lively curiosity has taken me to some pretty >> interesting places in technology, among other things. If you have a kid >> that refuses to give up, don't entertain him, challenge him. >> > >Certainly true. Funny the things you remember... 55 years ago, when I complained of not enough allowance, my father (*) said, "Something keeping you from pumping gas?" That's sort of become my mantra. (*) Making, in 1955, the annual equivalent of $132,000 today. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
From: krw on 19 Apr 2010 23:26 On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:11:23 -0700 (PDT), brent <bulegoge(a)columbus.rr.com> wrote: >On Apr 19, 7:08�pm, "k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" ><k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: >> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:06:17 -0700, "Joel Koltner" >> >> >> >> <zapwireDASHgro...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >"mpm" <mpmill...(a)aol.com> wrote in message >> >news:11c6a47c-5162-49bf-8fc0-5fc1ebe50b40(a)z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com... >> >On Apr 18, 5:32 pm, chris w <ch...(a)smartjack.com> wrote: >> >> Well, maybe if you specialize in the right niche, or perhaps, venture >> >> out with your own consulting firm. >> >> >Yes, analog and RF are your friends here. >> >> >And there's actually plenty of demand for *good* digital/embedded software >> >guys, it's just that there are so darned many out there, and the *average* >> >quality is so low, that many companies just start outsourcing, contracting, >> >etc. >> >> >> Put simply: �Electrical Engineering has become project based. >> >> Companies bring on a team of engineers, and dump the whole lot of them >> >> when the project is over. >> >> >Not universally true, by any means, although it'd be interesting to find some >> >statistics on what percentage of U.S. EEs are "serial contractors" vs. regular >> >employees. >> >> >I suspect that it's the large companies that go for serial employment more >> >than the little ones. � >> >> I think you'll find it's the other way around. >> >> >I used to live in Corvallis, Oregon where the largest >> >private employer is HP, and a very large chunk of the employees were temps... >> >they did this dance where they could only work for something like 10 months >> >and then had to be off for 2 months or somesuch to maintain their "temporary" >> >status. �Some of the temps (especially the younger ones) actually liked this >> >arrangement, but the older ones/those with kids/etc. were constantly vying for >> >the limited number of permanent positions that would come up each cycle. >> >> A lot of large companies don't hire contractors for this reason. �If they do, >> they hire the hiring out to a meat market to make *sure* they aren't tagged >> with the contractors being regular employees. �I know the few times we hired a >> contractor we had to pay another 20%, or so, on top of all the taxes, just so >> we would never pay the contractor directly. �We even put the contractor and >> "employer" together and only funneled money through one to the other. >> >> >HP also had some interesting ideas about "continuing education" -- in school >> >(Oregon State University), there were a lot of HP employees who were taking >> >classes to "advance" their careers, yet seemingly HP sometimes only cared >> >about people getting a degree and not what they were actually learning -- I >> >had a project partner in an antennas class (we built a classic Kraus-style >> >helical antenna) who was a marketing manager for ink, and I'm pretty sure she >> >would have been just as happy learning about the mating cycles of honey bees >> >with their exploding testicles and all as she was about array factors and >> >elemental dipoles... but she was motivated by the promise of a raise when she >> >finished the degree. >> >> IBM paid for advanced degrees and usually gave time off for engineers to take >> classes but there was no promise of a raise or promotion upon completion of a >> degree. �There rarely was either for engineers. �Tecnicians would often be >> promoted to engineer upon receiving a BSEE, though. � > >I would hope so Not always the case, though. I lost a couple of really good techs because they couldn't get promoted. A couple transferred to a programming group and got promoted on transfer.
From: krw on 19 Apr 2010 23:31 On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:58:37 -0700, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote: ><krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message >news:03ops5l5e81o45bvk4djqautck2v9je4jr(a)4ax.com... >> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:06:17 -0700, "Joel Koltner" >> <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>I suspect that it's the large companies that go for serial employment more >>>than the little ones. >> I think you'll find it's the other way around. > >Hmm, might be, I don't really know. > >[HP using temps] > >> A lot of large companies don't hire contractors for this reason. > >Yes, HP did this -- there was one firm in town that was effectively captive to >HP. (I think they did fill positions for a few other employers as well, but >the thing was that if you wanted a temp job at HP, there was one and only one >firm where you'd sign up as a temp.) Would you be an employee of HP or the job shop? If the latter, they were being overly careful about the rules (10/12 months employment isn't necessary). >> IBM paid for advanced degrees and usually gave time off for engineers to >> take >> classes but there was no promise of a raise or promotion upon completion of >> a >> degree. > >That's pretty much how it was with my master's -- work paid tuition, but it >really had no impact on my salary (which was fine by me at the time). I got half way through but the program (Syracuse) was a joke and I got bored. >> There rarely was either for engineers. Tecnicians would often be >> promoted to engineer upon receiving a BSEE, though. > >Hopefully they'd promote some of the really good techs who were clearly >capable of doing engineering work to engineering positions as well, regardless >of their academic background. It happened but it was exceedingly rare. There was an "equivalency board" that had a real hard-on for techs. One outstanding kid that I trained transferred to the research division (Yorktown Labs) and was promoted right up the ladder. He'd never have gone anywhere if he hadn't transferred.
From: krw on 19 Apr 2010 23:33
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:25:55 -0700, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >"Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >news:833khtFs1pU3(a)mid.individual.net... >> I never had a problem putting teams together. BUT, the average age of such >> teams was usually well over 40. > >...and I bet it's been creeping up over time... I suspect the same. >> Companies that think that everyone over 35 is past prime are going to face >> one project failure after another. > >The problem might be that guys who go to business school are often no better >running a business at 40 than they are at 25. :-) You think the experience of running businesses into the ground teaches them something other than how to run a business into the ground? Practice makes perfect. BTW, the owner of the company where I work is a business school grad. ;-) |