California schools $120M solar project
in [Design]
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From: Michael A. Terrell on 4 Jun 2010 13:33 "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > > On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:02:51 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > >"krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:48:44 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > >> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >"krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:47:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > >> >> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >Joel Koltner wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "Michael" <mrdarrett(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > >> >> >> news:73ea42e6-fd75-41b7-89c4-593b613accc1(a)a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... > >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2:19 pm, "m...(a)sushi.com" <m...(a)sushi.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > I bought a rechargeable drill from them awhile back, and the NiCd > >> >> >> > battery charger doesn't even have a sensor telling when charging is > >> >> >> > done. You have to guess when it's done charging. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> It's probably just a transformer->rectifier->resistor->battery, set to charge > >> >> >> at a C/10 rate or thereabouts. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> So you just wait ~12 hours or so and you're guaranteed it's fully charged -- > >> >> >> no guessing necessary. :-) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> There was a time, not that long ago, when most battery chargers were this, um, > >> >> >> "featureless!" > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Dad wanted to buy same drill (on sale for $15); I talked him out of > >> >> >> > it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Sounds like it might be worth $15, actually... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I think Harbor Freight is a good example of (1) you tend to get what you pay > >> >> >> for and (2) advertising leads many people to believe they need a lot more than > >> >> >> they really do. Their "value for the dollar" is actually pretty good -- > >> >> >> unlike a well-known brand name where the "image" can sometimes be much > >> >> >> flashier than what you're really getting (counting on many people never > >> >> >> recognizing as much -- see #2), with Harbor Freight it's pretty clear exactly > >> >> >> how rugged (or not) the item you're purchasing is. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If you really want to impress your dad, get him one of these: > >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-1676-6-2-Inch-Joist-Drill/dp/B00005OP5S > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > I see a lot of people buying tools for their business at Harbor > >> >> >Freight, and at Northern Tools. They don't complain about the quality, > >> >> >they complain that people steal their tools. > >> >> > >> >> Right. No one would steal a HF tool. <rdh> > >> > > >> > > >> > Not according to some people. Their 'Pittsburgh' brand of hand tools > >> >are stolen fairly often. > >> > > >> > > >> >> BTW, I have an order with them now for a portable dust collector ($70) and a > >> >> wide-crown pneumatic stapler ($20). They didn't have them on sale in the > >> >> store in Dothan Saturday. > >> > > >> > > >> > Dothan? EWWWWWWWW!!! I had to drive there from Ft Rucker too many > >> >times to pick up parts from a small wholesale electronics place. > >> > >> We hadn't been in that part of the state yet. Dothan isn't *that* bad. SWMBO > >> liked the antique stores (I needed some cheap brownie points ;). Eufaula is > >> rather nice driving through. The mansions along the main drag are something. > >> I thought I might like a house on the lake (big lake), but then found out it's > >> full of 'gators. Maybe not. > >> > >> > If I had taken that civil service job that I was offered in '73, I > >> >would probably still be in the area. > >> > >> It's about 85mi South of here. > > > > > > Good. You don't want to hang around an Army base. > > There's also Ft. Bennington, in Columbus. The new Infantry Museum is really > nice. Some of the exhibits are still unfinished but it's a beautiful place. The new Air Museum at ft. Rucker was opened while I was working in Destin, but I didn't get a chance to visit. It was in old, leaky W.W. II wood buildings when i was stationed there. > >Even if there was a nice highway to Dothan. > > All the highways around here are nice (no frost heaves). US451 is 4-lane, > except for a couple of miles North of Eufaula. > > >I remember ch 4? from Dothan while I was > >building that TV station in Destin. They still started their broadcast > >day with a farm report, and their weather forcast used '50s props. That > >was in the early '90s. > > It's not uncommon for Midwest stations to start their news with the farm > report. Radio stations used to do them from 12:00 to 1:00, when the farmers > were in for lunch. I'm familiar with the concept but it, and their newscasts were so amateurish I half expect to see Ted Baxter reading the news. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
From: Michael A. Terrell on 4 Jun 2010 13:34 "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > > On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:48:44 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > >"krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:47:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > >> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >Joel Koltner wrote: > >> >> > >> >> "Michael" <mrdarrett(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > >> >> news:73ea42e6-fd75-41b7-89c4-593b613accc1(a)a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... > >> >> On Jun 2, 2:19 pm, "m...(a)sushi.com" <m...(a)sushi.com> wrote: > >> >> > I bought a rechargeable drill from them awhile back, and the NiCd > >> >> > battery charger doesn't even have a sensor telling when charging is > >> >> > done. You have to guess when it's done charging. > >> >> > >> >> It's probably just a transformer->rectifier->resistor->battery, set to charge > >> >> at a C/10 rate or thereabouts. > >> >> > >> >> So you just wait ~12 hours or so and you're guaranteed it's fully charged -- > >> >> no guessing necessary. :-) > >> >> > >> >> There was a time, not that long ago, when most battery chargers were this, um, > >> >> "featureless!" > >> >> > >> >> > Dad wanted to buy same drill (on sale for $15); I talked him out of > >> >> > it. > >> >> > >> >> Sounds like it might be worth $15, actually... > >> >> > >> >> I think Harbor Freight is a good example of (1) you tend to get what you pay > >> >> for and (2) advertising leads many people to believe they need a lot more than > >> >> they really do. Their "value for the dollar" is actually pretty good -- > >> >> unlike a well-known brand name where the "image" can sometimes be much > >> >> flashier than what you're really getting (counting on many people never > >> >> recognizing as much -- see #2), with Harbor Freight it's pretty clear exactly > >> >> how rugged (or not) the item you're purchasing is. > >> >> > >> >> If you really want to impress your dad, get him one of these: > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-1676-6-2-Inch-Joist-Drill/dp/B00005OP5S > >> > > >> > > >> > I see a lot of people buying tools for their business at Harbor > >> >Freight, and at Northern Tools. They don't complain about the quality, > >> >they complain that people steal their tools. > >> > >> Right. No one would steal a HF tool. <rdh> > > > > > > Not according to some people. Their 'Pittsburgh' brand of hand tools > >are stolen fairly often. > > > > > >> BTW, I have an order with them now for a portable dust collector ($70) and a > >> wide-crown pneumatic stapler ($20). They didn't have them on sale in the > >> store in Dothan Saturday. > > > > > > Dothan? EWWWWWWWW!!! I had to drive there from Ft Rucker too many > >times to pick up parts from a small wholesale electronics place. > > Ah, I see Ft. Rucker now. It's over by Enterprise. I was looking at a job > over there (radar development). They kept dragging their feet, then were > surprised when I told them I'd taken another job. <shrug> Most things are slower than molasses in that area. :) > > If I had taken that civil service job that I was offered in '73, I > >would probably still be in the area. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
From: Michael A. Terrell on 4 Jun 2010 13:36 "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > > My RAS is a Craftsman. The table saw is a Delta Unisaw, I bought last year. I > was going to buy one a few years ago but knew we were going to try to get out > of Vermont. I didn't see the point in moving a 600lb saw into our basement > and then hauling it back out in a year or two. So I waited until we moved and > bought another house. It's living in the garage now so I could wheel it into > the driveway. The door open is good enough. It'll move upstairs when I get > the room finished (probably another year). The garage is good enough for me. I'd have to build an elevator if I had a second floor. :( -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
From: Bill Sloman on 4 Jun 2010 17:50 On Jun 3, 9:37 am, Sylvia Else <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote: > On 2/06/2010 11:03 PM,Bill Slomanwrote: > > > > > On Jun 1, 3:58 am, Sylvia Else<syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote: > >> On 1/06/2010 12:25 AM,Bill Slomanwrote: > > >>> On May 31, 1:38 pm, PeterD<pet...(a)hipson.net> wrote: > >>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 06:02:23 -0500, "amdx"<a...(a)knology.net> wrote: > >>>>> Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district > >>>>> spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools. > >>>>> I did a Google search and can't find any info. > >>>>> The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective, > >>>>> so I'm curious. > >>>>> Anybody know more about it? > >>>>> Mike > > >>>> I believe they gave $119 million to Al Gore's efforts, and spent the > >>>> remaining million on publicity. > > >>> The request was for information about what the California School > >>> District has done, not an invitation for you to exercise your > >>> incompetent imagination. > > >>> Admittedly, anyone asking for information about a political solar > >>> energy initiative here should expect to get answers drawn from the > >>> imagination of our resident right-wing nit-wits. > > >>> A quick google picked upt these initiatives > > >>>http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8110902-fremont-california-school-.... > > >>>http://www.chevronenergy.com/case_studies/sjusd.asp > > >>> which do seem to involve expenditure of the order of $120M. > > >>> At the moment solar energy is only cost-effective if you figure in the > >>> uncosted consequences of the CO2 emissions associated with fossil > >>> fueled energy generation. Political initiatives that subsidise solar > >>> energy generation are designed to fill in that gap, and often a bit > >>> more beside, since increasing the market for solar energy > >>> installations helps the economies of scale, > > >> I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels > >> already represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they > >> are, have already been obtained. > > > The "economies of scale" aren't just the simple stuff, such as when > > you ship 100,000 units a year it becomes worth your while to put most > > of the electronics into an ASIC. It covers the sort of developments > > where people think that the market is big enough to justify developing > > a completely different way of making solar cells. > > Inventing a different technology is not an economy of scale, and there's > no guarantee that it will materialise. There's certainly no guarantee that it will materialise, but experience does suggest that there is reason to be hopeful. And "inventing a different technology" is making an artificial distinction between the small incremental improvements which we know about and expect and the slightly larger improvements that look less obvious in highsight. Improving technology always involves changing sonething, and some of the changes are more obvious than others. > > This sort of development is highly speculative and costs tens to > > hundreds of millions of dollars by the time you've turned it into a > > production line - nobody invests that kind of money until they are > > pretty confident about the eventual market. > > > Economists don't understand any of the technical details - they just > > know that as the market for a product expands, the unit cost tends to > > halve for every ten-fold expansion in production volume. > > > The first computer I ever worked with hands-on was a PDP-8. It cost > > something like ten times what I was being paid per year at the time. > > Nowadays there are single chip processors that are moe powerful that > > sell for about what I'd earn in a minute if I could persuade someone > > to hime me. Solar panels need area in a way that processors don't, but > > they are going to get a lot cheaper to make and a lot easier to mount > > (perhaps as stick-on films). > > > -- > >Bill Sloman, Nijmegen > > So why do car bateries still cost so much? They certainly look cheaper to me than they did when I was a graduate student. Battery technology certainly hasn't improved dramatically over the last fifty years - the inventors who were busy in that area around the nineteenth century do seem to have picked off all the low- hanging fruit, but the inventors did lose interest once the internal combustion engine put paid to the electric car (whose popularity peaked in 1912). Perhaps the current market is just too small? -- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
From: krw on 4 Jun 2010 20:02
On Fri, 4 Jun 2010 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT), Richard Henry <pomerado(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >On Jun 3, 8:33�pm, "k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> >wrote: >> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:02:51 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> >> >> >> <mike.terr...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >"k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 05:48:44 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> >> <mike.terr...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >"k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:47:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> >> >> <mike.terr...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Joel Koltner wrote: >> >> >> >> >> "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >>news:73ea42e6-fd75-41b7-89c4-593b613accc1(a)a20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2:19 pm, "m...(a)sushi.com" <m...(a)sushi.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > I bought a rechargeable drill from them awhile back, and the NiCd >> >> >> >> > battery charger doesn't even have a sensor telling when charging is >> >> >> >> > done. �You have to guess when it's done charging. >> >> >> >> >> It's probably just a transformer->rectifier->resistor->battery, set to charge >> >> >> >> at a C/10 rate or thereabouts. >> >> >> >> >> So you just wait ~12 hours or so and you're guaranteed it's fully charged -- >> >> >> >> no guessing necessary. :-) >> >> >> >> >> There was a time, not that long ago, when most battery chargers were this, um, >> >> >> >> "featureless!" >> >> >> >> >> > Dad wanted to buy same drill (on sale for $15); I talked him out of >> >> >> >> > it. >> >> >> >> >> Sounds like it might be worth $15, actually... >> >> >> >> >> I think Harbor Freight is a good example of (1) you tend to get what you pay >> >> >> >> for and (2) advertising leads many people to believe they need a lot more than >> >> >> >> they really do. �Their "value for the dollar" is actually pretty good -- >> >> >> >> unlike a well-known brand name where the "image" can sometimes be much >> >> >> >> flashier than what you're really getting (counting on many people never >> >> >> >> recognizing as much -- see #2), with Harbor Freight it's pretty clear exactly >> >> >> >> how rugged (or not) the item you're purchasing is. >> >> >> >> >> If you really want to impress your dad, get him one of these: >> >> >> >>http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-1676-6-2-Inch-Joist-Drill/dp/B00005OP5S >> >> >> >> > � I see a lot of people buying tools for their business at Harbor >> >> >> >Freight, and at Northern Tools. �They don't complain about the quality, >> >> >> >they complain that people steal their tools. >> >> >> >> Right. �No one would steal a HF tool. �<rdh> >> >> >> > � Not according to some people. �Their 'Pittsburgh' brand of hand tools >> >> >are stolen fairly often. >> >> >> >> BTW, I have an order with them now for a portable dust collector ($70) and a >> >> >> wide-crown pneumatic stapler ($20). �They didn't have them on sale in the >> >> >> store in Dothan Saturday. >> >> >> > � Dothan? �EWWWWWWWW!!! �I had to drive there from Ft Rucker too many >> >> >times to pick up parts from a small wholesale electronics place. >> >> >> We hadn't been in that part of the state yet. �Dothan isn't *that* bad. SWMBO >> >> liked the antique stores (I needed some cheap brownie points ;). Eufaula is >> >> rather nice driving through. �The mansions along the main drag are something. >> >> I thought I might like a house on the lake (big lake), but then found out it's >> >> full of 'gators. �Maybe not. >> >> >> > � If I had taken that civil service job that I was offered in '73, I >> >> >would probably still be in the area. >> >> >> It's about 85mi South of here. >> >> > � Good. You don't want to hang around an Army base. >> >> There's also Ft. Bennington, in Columbus. �The new Infantry Museum is really >> nice. �Some of the exhibits are still unfinished but it's a beautiful place. >> >> >Even if there was a nice highway to Dothan. � >> >> All the highways around here are nice (no frost heaves). �US451 is 4-lane, >> except for a couple of miles North of Eufaula. >> >> >I remember ch 4? from Dothan while I was >> >building that TV station in Destin. �They still started their broadcast >> >day with a farm report, and their weather forcast used '50s props. �That >> >was in the early '90s. >> >> It's not uncommon for Midwest stations to start their news with the farm >> report. �Radio stations used to do them from 12:00 to 1:00, when the farmers >> were in for lunch. > >You shouls have seen Across the Fence around noon on Ch. 3 when you >were living in Vt. WCAX? Nope, never saw it. >I remember after my grandmother first got TV in the old farmhouse in >North Fayston sitting with her at lunch eating fried egg sandwiches >watching that show. Man, there's a berg in the middle of nowhere. |