California schools $120M solar project
in [Design]
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From: wmbjkREMOVE on 1 Jun 2010 20:18 On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 23:56:08 +0000 (UTC), don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: > Compare that to the 1 KW >per square meter that I have some impression that solar cell arrays are >rated at... Where'd you get that impression? Here's a typical module. http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=807. ~135W per sq. meter. > That sounds to me like 34-47 dollars per watt in Philadelphia, if the >panels are laid horizontally. GIGO Wayne
From: Don Klipstein on 1 Jun 2010 20:31 In <a02fbcd6-105c-4d96-b1bf-0edfefd91afb(a)z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>, miso(a)sushi.com wrote: >On May 31, 7:33�am, MooseFET <kensm...(a)rahul.net> wrote: >> On May 31, 4:02�am, "amdx" <a...(a)knology.net> wrote: >> >> > Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district >> > spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools. >> > I did a Google search and can't find any info. >> > The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective, >> > so I'm curious. >> > �Anybody know more about it? >> > � � � � � � �Mike >> >> California is a very sunny place. �In a lot of it, just a little gain >> from >> some solar heat can save you from having to turn on the furnace. >> Since >> schools are generally large buildings, the volume to surface area is >> large >> so the solar heating system doesn't have to be all that big per >> student. >> >> Solar electric can make sense if you sell the excess power into the >> grid. >> Storage makes it not make sense. �It takes about 12 years for a solar >> power >> system to pay for its self assuming you get a mortgage to buy it. �If >> you >> have cash today, it makes a good way to invest for the future because >> after >> the system has paid its self off, you will get several year of use >> before it >> needs to be replaced. > >The school day is poorly scheduled to take advantage of any solar >energy. They start way too early in the day. My experience in and near Philadelphia is that school days are centered around noon or less than an hour before noon. Keep in mind that on average, cloudiness is worse after noon than before even in Philadelphia with their few days per year clouded by "morning fog" or "morning foggy low clouds". -- - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com)
From: Robert Baer on 2 Jun 2010 01:59 amdx wrote: > "Robert Baer" <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote in message > news:bb2dnV2Vrq5ppJnRnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d(a)posted.localnet... >> amdx wrote: >>> Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district >>> spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools. >>> I did a Google search and can't find any info. >>> The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective, >>> so I'm curious. >>> Anybody know more about it? >>> Mike >> Since when does a government institution have to be sane or spend >> taxpayer money effectively? > > That thought did come to mind. I'm hopeful that we (the people) are taking > the power that the constitution says we have and telling our reps it's time > to cut the spending. When our reps stop having town meetings because > the people are angry, that is a change. > November is coming, please support candidates that believe in the ideas > that provided a great standard of living in 200 years. > Limited government, freedom, liberty and property rights. > Mike > That property rights is a getting to be big. Getting so you can't dig a hole > on > your own property and in PC Fl. It's is a $1000 fine to cut down a pine tree > over a certain diameter, on YOUR* property. > Government and the environmentalist are out of control. > > * If you can call it yours, try not paying that rent. > Also known as property tax. > end of rant. > > Absolute *CHECK* !!
From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot on 2 Jun 2010 04:38 On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:18:57 -0700 wmbjkREMOVE(a)citlink.net wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 23:56:08 +0000 (UTC), don(a)manx.misty.com (Don > Klipstein) wrote: > > > > Compare that to the 1 KW > >per square meter that I have some impression that solar cell arrays are > >rated at... > > Where'd you get that impression? Here's a typical module. Probably from reading the specs and knowing about the typical efficiency of PV cells. The output rating of PV cells is usually quoted under "full sun" conditions of around 1000 W per sq. metre. > http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=807. > ~135W per sq. meter. That's the electrical output of that panel, which given the normal efficiency of panels like that (10-15%) means an insolation of around 1000 W per sq. meter. Actually the specs for that panel claim 13.1% efficiency so slightly over 1000 W per sq. metre is required to achieve that output. > > That sounds to me like 34-47 dollars per watt in Philadelphia, if the > >panels are laid horizontally. > > GIGO Not so - those were pretty accurate calculations. Of course if you want efficient use of solar energy then solar thermal is the way to go - it's not too hard to get 70-80% of the insolation energy available as usable heat. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
From: Bill Sloman on 2 Jun 2010 09:03
On Jun 1, 3:58 am, Sylvia Else <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote: > On 1/06/2010 12:25 AM,Bill Slomanwrote: > > > > > On May 31, 1:38 pm, PeterD<pet...(a)hipson.net> wrote: > >> On Mon, 31 May 2010 06:02:23 -0500, "amdx"<a...(a)knology.net> wrote: > >>> Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district > >>> spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools. > >>> I did a Google search and can't find any info. > >>> The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective, > >>> so I'm curious. > >>> Anybody know more about it? > >>> Mike > > >> I believe they gave $119 million to Al Gore's efforts, and spent the > >> remaining million on publicity. > > > The request was for information about what the California School > > District has done, not an invitation for you to exercise your > > incompetent imagination. > > > Admittedly, anyone asking for information about a political solar > > energy initiative here should expect to get answers drawn from the > > imagination of our resident right-wing nit-wits. > > > A quick google picked upt these initiatives > > >http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8110902-fremont-california-school-... > > >http://www.chevronenergy.com/case_studies/sjusd.asp > > > which do seem to involve expenditure of the order of $120M. > > > At the moment solar energy is only cost-effective if you figure in the > > uncosted consequences of the CO2 emissions associated with fossil > > fueled energy generation. Political initiatives that subsidise solar > > energy generation are designed to fill in that gap, and often a bit > > more beside, since increasing the market for solar energy > > installations helps the economies of scale, > > I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels > already represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they > are, have already been obtained. The "economies of scale" aren't just the simple stuff, such as when you ship 100,000 units a year it becomes worth your while to put most of the electronics into an ASIC. It covers the sort of developments where people think that the market is big enough to justify developing a completely different way of making solar cells. This sort of development is highly speculative and costs tens to hundreds of millions of dollars by the time you've turned it into a production line - nobody invests that kind of money until they are pretty confident about the eventual market. Economists don't understand any of the technical details - they just know that as the market for a product expands, the unit cost tends to halve for every ten-fold expansion in production volume. The first computer I ever worked with hands-on was a PDP-8. It cost something like ten times what I was being paid per year at the time. Nowadays there are single chip processors that are moe powerful that sell for about what I'd earn in a minute if I could persuade someone to hime me. Solar panels need area in a way that processors don't, but they are going to get a lot cheaper to make and a lot easier to mount (perhaps as stick-on films). -- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen |