Deep Sea Gas Venting ?
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From: Ken S. Tucker on 5 May 2010 04:07 On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > Thank you for your replies guys, > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > > is expelled. > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > > based on the carbon cycle. > > Best Regards and Thanks > > Ken S. Tucker > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > Assume a temperature of 4° C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, = 1 atmosphere, so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > trenches? Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to get Carbon. I'm in studential mode. > Tom Davidson > Richmond, VA Yes thank you, life at a 1000 atmospheres needs study, who knows it applies to exo-biology. Regards Ken S. Tucker
From: Ken S. Tucker on 5 May 2010 16:49 On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > Thank you for your replies guys, > > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > > > is expelled. > > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > > > based on the carbon cycle. > > > Best Regards and Thanks > > > Ken S. Tucker > > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > > Assume a temperature of 4° C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. > > What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. > I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, = 1 atmosphere, > so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > > > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? > > Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > > > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > > trenches? > > Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic > circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from > dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. > CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as > nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given > that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to > get Carbon. > I'm in studential mode. > > > Tom Davidson > > Richmond, VA > > Yes thank you, > life at a 1000 atmospheres needs study, who knows it applies to > exo-biology. > Regards > Ken S. Tucker Warming up Brain Engines.... You fella's improved my understanding, I posted to SPF..... To Mr Green and Fred. On May 4, 6:41 pm, Edward Green <spamspamsp...(a)netzero.com> wrote: > On May 2, 5:46 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, > > (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). > > > Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into > > the Mariana Trench,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench > > enabling > 35000' depth. > > > Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, > > and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). > > 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. > > I use water density = 800x sea level air density. > > > To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric > > pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. > > If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in > > the balloon with go negative and want to sink. > > > That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > > below 26,400' from undersea vents. > > Perhaps at such depths expelled gasses are in solution with the > surrounding water, rather than in discrete bubbles? This doesn't seem > very "foundational". More like applied P-chem. Ask in > rec.arts.sf.science . Tell them you're writing a story about beings > that live under these conditions. Some highly educated type will > probably tell you more than you wanted to know. I've been informed the study of high pressure effects is "condensed matter physics" makes sense when a gas is subjected to 1000 atmospheres of pressure. (33' x 1000 = 33,000 feet submerged depth) (33' of submerged is about 1 atmosphere). (Mariana is > 35000 feet deep). The usual classical laws of gases apparently breakdown and a quantum physics starts up, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_point_(thermodynamics) A reasonable 'foundational' consideration is how to understand the departure from classical gas laws to those in high pressure. How about doing the physics of the interior of a neutron star? What's the pressure there? What is the physics there? Maybe we're just warming up the brain engines. Regards Ken S. Tucker
From: John Park on 6 May 2010 00:59 "Ken S. Tucker" (dynamics(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 >> > > is expelled. >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. >> >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, >> > > based on the carbon cycle. >> > > Best Regards and Thanks >> > > Ken S. Tucker >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. >> >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. >> >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. >> >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? >> >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. >> >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep >> > trenches? >> >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to >> get Carbon. I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? --John Park P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents?
From: tadchem on 6 May 2010 19:50 On May 6, 12:59 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > > > > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, > >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > >> > > is expelled. > >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > >> > > based on the carbon cycle. > >> > > Best Regards and Thanks > >> > > Ken S. Tucker > >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. > > >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. > >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, > >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > > >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? > > >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > > >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > >> > trenches? > > >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic > >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from > >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. > >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as > >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given > >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to > >> get Carbon. > > I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at > 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is > converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at > 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? > > --John Park > > P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Ken is evidently alreday convinced that the bubbles arising from submarine vents are *air* bubbles, despite a total lack of supporting data and a literal flood of data to the contrary. Tom Davidson Richmond, VA
From: Ken S. Tucker on 6 May 2010 21:26
On May 6, 4:50 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On May 6, 12:59 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > > > > > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, > > >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > > >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > > >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > > >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > > >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > > >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > > >> > > is expelled. > > >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > > >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > > >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > > >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > > >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > > >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > > >> > > based on the carbon cycle. > > >> > > Best Regards and Thanks > > >> > > Ken S. Tucker > > >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > > >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > > >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. > > > >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. > > >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, > > >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > > > >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > > >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > > >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > > >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? > > > >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > > > >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > > >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > > >> > trenches? > > > >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic > > >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from > > >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. > > >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as > > >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given > > >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to > > >> get Carbon. > > > I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at > > 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is > > converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at > > 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? > > --John Park > > P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents? Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > Ken is evidently alreday convinced that the bubbles arising from > submarine vents are *air* bubbles, despite a total lack of supporting > data and a literal flood of data to the contrary. > Tom Davidson > Richmond, VA Tom, I have a question, what is heavier O2 or H20? Ken |