Deep Sea Gas Venting ?
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From: Ken S. Tucker on 8 May 2010 02:57 On May 7, 8:31 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > > On May 6, 11:08 pm, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > >> "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > ... > > >> > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > > >> In the crust. And atom-for-atom you're mostly hydrogen. Your point? > >> --John Park > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen#Occurrence > > > "Oxygen is the most abundant chemical element, by mass, in our > > biosphere, air, sea and land" > > > If true, that was bridled at the time of Earths formation, > > some 6 billion years ago, (+/- 2 billion) > > What does that mean to you John Park? > > "Bridled"?? You think there were horses and riders 6 +/- 2 billion years > ago? > > I'm not sure what you're asking, O hydrogen-based entity, but I suspect the >answer is along the lines of: CO2, H2O, SiO2. > --John Park Well John, I'm curious about the source of the O2 that's in Earth. The reason is cuz that is a life creating element. My current understanding is it was produced by fusion, what say you bub. Ken
From: Ken S. Tucker on 8 May 2010 03:06 On May 7, 3:18 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On May 6, 9:26 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > > > On May 6, 4:50 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > On May 6, 12:59 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > > > > > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > > > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > > >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > > >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, > > > > >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > > > > >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > > > > >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > > > > >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > > > > >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > > > > >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > > > > >> > > is expelled. > > > > >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > > > > >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > > > > >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > > > > >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > > > > >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > > > > >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > > > > >> > > based on the carbon cycle. > > > > >> > > Best Regards and Thanks > > > > >> > > Ken S. Tucker > > > > >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > > > > >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > > > > >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. > > > > > >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. > > > > >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, > > > > >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > > > > > >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > > > > >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > > > > >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > > > > >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? > > > > > >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > > > > > >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > > > > >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > > > > >> > trenches? > > > > > >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic > > > > >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from > > > > >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. > > > > >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as > > > > >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given > > > > >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to > > > > >> get Carbon. > > > > > I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at > > > > 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is > > > > converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at > > > > 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? > > > > --John Park > > > > P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents? > > > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > > > > Ken is evidently alreday convinced that the bubbles arising from > > > submarine vents are *air* bubbles, despite a total lack of supporting > > > data and a literal flood of data to the contrary. > > > Tom Davidson > > > Richmond, VA > > > Tom, I have a question, what is heavier O2 or H20? > > Ken > ..."heavier" in which sense? Weight. > ...and how is this relevant to your fantasy of great quantities of air > trapped under the ocean? Originally it was posited to submerge a balloon with O2 in it, I think Tom you are suggesting something from your mind. Anyway Tom, are you able to determine the pressure at the center of a Neutron star? (We're sliding to condensed matter physics, now that I've warmed up your brain engine :-). > Tom Davidson > Richmond, VA Good Regards Ken
From: tadchem on 8 May 2010 11:28 On May 8, 3:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: <snip repost> > Originally it was posited to submerge a balloon with O2 in it, > I think Tom you are suggesting something from your mind. Allow me to quote your OP in this thread (May2): "That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, below 26,400' from undersea vents. " This was not my imagination. There is no evidence that I know of for gas expulsions from the bottoms of trenches, and those undersea gas vents that are found (usually at undersea *ridges*) release gases other than N2, O2, or air. > Anyway Tom, are you able to determine the pressure at the center > of a Neutron star? > (We're sliding to condensed matter physics, now that I've warmed > up your brain engine :-). I am a chemical physicist. This is a little out of my field. In a neutron star the pressures are sufficient to overcome the coulombic repulsion of atomic nuclei and the quantum mechanical effects of electron degeneracy. To hazard an educated guess, the pressure at the center of a neutron star would be the same as the pressure at the center of an ordinary star with the identical mass. Pressure is a function of mass, not composition. The temperature would be quite different, however. Tom Davidson Richmond, VA
From: Ken S. Tucker on 8 May 2010 13:56 On May 8, 8:28 am, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On May 8, 3:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > <snip repost> > > > Originally it was posited to submerge a balloon with O2 in it, > > I think Tom you are suggesting something from your mind. > > Allow me to quote your OP in this thread (May2): > "That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > below 26,400' from undersea vents. " > This was not my imagination. > There is no evidence that I know of for gas expulsions from the > bottoms of trenches, and those undersea gas vents that are found > (usually at undersea *ridges*) release gases other than N2, O2, or > air. While the topic asails, the BP blow-out, (Gulf of Mexico), reportedly from an explosion caused by a CH4 bubble, killed 11 + 1 oil rig. Check this, BP cracks a deposit 1 mile deep, the basic geology is natural gas on top, then oil, then water below. 5280' = 1 mile = 160 atmospheres of pressure, (33'~1atmo). (Naturally we have empathy for the damages, but physics is nifty). Pressure at 160 atmos is 15#/sq in x 160 = 2400#/sq in. (I worked with Crane Supply in pipe plumbing sales, 2400# pipe spec is readily available). > > Anyway Tom, are you able to determine the pressure at the center > > of a Neutron star? > > (We're sliding to condensed matter physics, now that I've warmed > > up your brain engine :-). > > I am a chemical physicist. This is a little out of my field. > In a neutron star the pressures are sufficient to overcome the > coulombic repulsion of atomic nuclei and the quantum mechanical > effects of electron degeneracy. > To hazard an educated guess, the pressure at the center of a neutron > star would be the same as the pressure at the center of an ordinary > star with the identical mass. Pressure is a function of mass, not > composition. The temperature would be quite different, however. Sounds educated to me. How about we use basic fluid mechanics (non-compressible), 10 mile diameter with the mass of the Sun? Can you ball park central pressure from those specs? > Tom Davidson > Richmond, VA Regards Ken S. Tucker
From: Ken S. Tucker on 8 May 2010 14:49
On May 8, 10:56 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > On May 8, 8:28 am, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > On May 8, 3:06 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > <snip repost> > > > > Originally it was posited to submerge a balloon with O2 in it, > > > I think Tom you are suggesting something from your mind. > > > Allow me to quote your OP in this thread (May2): > > "That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > > below 26,400' from undersea vents. " > > This was not my imagination. > > There is no evidence that I know of for gas expulsions from the > > bottoms of trenches, and those undersea gas vents that are found > > (usually at undersea *ridges*) release gases other than N2, O2, or > > air. > > While the topic asails, the BP blow-out, (Gulf of Mexico), reportedly > from an explosion caused by a CH4 bubble, killed 11 + 1 oil rig. > Check this, BP cracks a deposit 1 mile deep, the basic geology is > natural gas on top, then oil, then water below. > 5280' = 1 mile = 160 atmospheres of pressure, (33'~1atmo). > (Naturally we have empathy for the damages, but physics is nifty). > > Pressure at 160 atmos is 15#/sq in x 160 = 2400#/sq in. > (I worked with Crane Supply in pipe plumbing sales, 2400# pipe > spec is readily available). Here's a news link to that effect, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100508/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill;_ylt=ArMKS7v3hmVzgGCmIJ1_JwGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoYW9hYWkyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTA4L3VzX2d1bGZfb2lsX3NwaWxsBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDYXBuZXdzYnJlYWti Ken |