Deep Sea Gas Venting ?
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From: Ken S. Tucker on 2 May 2010 02:47 Hi Guys, On May 1, 3:44 pm, Edward Green <spamspamsp...(a)netzero.com> wrote: > On May 1, 2:34 pm, RonGr <rgrwork...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Inside the bubble would be H2O vapor as I would form the bubble with > > the small heater placed in the water container. > > > So first I apply some energy through the heater to grow a bubble. > > Then I double the hydrostatic pressure and try to grow the same bubble > > again. Would I then need double the amount of energy supplied? "grow a bubble", is that what happens in an electric kettle? What application do you have in mind? > Let me at least try so that somebody can correct me: > > The PdeltaV work in growing the bubble would indeed double. However, > the deltaE for breaking adhesive forces between the water molecules > would remain about the same. So you would need more heat added, but > not twice as much. Heat dQ = deltaE + PdeltaV. > Try to find a treatment of how enthalpy of vaporization changes with > pressure. Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into the Mariana Trench, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench enabling > 35000' depth. Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. I use water density = 800x sea level air density. To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in the balloon with go negative and want to sink. That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, below 26,400' from undersea vents. Thanks for responses. Ken S. Tucker
From: OG on 2 May 2010 06:06 "Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote in message news:d80988f9-9499-4217-b8ce-1120c4e6fc07(a)i9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com... > Hi Guys, > > On May 1, 3:44 pm, Edward Green <spamspamsp...(a)netzero.com> wrote: >> On May 1, 2:34 pm, RonGr <rgrwork...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Inside the bubble would be H2O vapor as I would form the bubble with >> > the small heater placed in the water container. >> >> > So first I apply some energy through the heater to grow a bubble. >> > Then I double the hydrostatic pressure and try to grow the same bubble >> > again. Would I then need double the amount of energy supplied? > > "grow a bubble", is that what happens in an electric kettle? > What application do you have in mind? > >> Let me at least try so that somebody can correct me: >> >> The PdeltaV work in growing the bubble would indeed double. However, >> the deltaE for breaking adhesive forces between the water molecules >> would remain about the same. So you would need more heat added, but >> not twice as much. Heat dQ = deltaE + PdeltaV. >> Try to find a treatment of how enthalpy of vaporization changes with >> pressure. > > Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, > (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). > > Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into > the Mariana Trench, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench > enabling > 35000' depth. > > Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, > and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). > 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. > I use water density = 800x sea level air density. > > To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric > pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. > If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in > the balloon with go negative and want to sink. > > That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > below 26,400' from undersea vents. What's the density of water at 800 atmospheres?
From: Timo Nieminen on 2 May 2010 07:31 On May 2, 4:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, > (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). > > Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into > the Mariana Trench,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench > enabling > 35000' depth. > > Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, > and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). > 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. > I use water density = 800x sea level air density. > > To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric > pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. > If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in > the balloon with go negative and want to sink. > > That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > below 26,400' from undersea vents. Well past the point where the ideal gas law is at all accurate, so don't trust numbers from PV = const. Vapour pressure of nitrogen at 300K is about 650 atmospheres, so your balloon won't have gas inside. Still, could have gas at that depth if hot enough. If not, it just isn't gas. Liquid N2 is less dense than water, so it would float up anyway, and turn to gas when sufficiently shallow. Similar thing with water - stuff coming out of volcanic vents that would be (mostly) water vapour if one the surface is just (mostly) hot water at depth (e.g., 300C, about 600K). Also similar thing with bubbles - high pressure is high pressure, whether the pressure is due to the weight of overlying water or the surface tension of a bubble. We melted toner (so for this toner, T>180C iirc) suspended in water with no boiling - small scale, we'd have needed micron-sized bubbles, and that's a lot of pressure there.
From: bert on 2 May 2010 08:13 On May 2, 7:31 am, Timo Nieminen <t...(a)physics.uq.edu.au> wrote: > On May 2, 4:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, > > (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). > > > Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into > > the Mariana Trench,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench > > enabling > 35000' depth. > > > Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, > > and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). > > 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. > > I use water density = 800x sea level air density. > > > To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric > > pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. > > If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in > > the balloon with go negative and want to sink. > > > That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > > below 26,400' from undersea vents. > > Well past the point where the ideal gas law is at all accurate, so > don't trust numbers from PV = const. Vapour pressure of nitrogen at > 300K is about 650 atmospheres, so your balloon won't have gas inside. > Still, could have gas at that depth if hot enough. If not, it just > isn't gas. Liquid N2 is less dense than water, so it would float up > anyway, and turn to gas when sufficiently shallow. > > Similar thing with water - stuff coming out of volcanic vents that > would be (mostly) water vapour if one the surface is just (mostly) hot > water at depth (e.g., 300C, about 600K). > > Also similar thing with bubbles - high pressure is high pressure, > whether the pressure is due to the weight of overlying water or the > surface tension of a bubble. We melted toner (so for this toner, > T>180C iirc) suspended in water with no boiling - small scale, we'd > have needed micron-sized bubbles, and that's a lot of pressure there.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I can get an idea how deep I am by the size of my bubbles when scuba diving. At first 33 feet I know I am at two atmosphere' of pressure 1 for air other for water TreBert
From: Ken S. Tucker on 2 May 2010 14:58
Hi Timo and guys. On May 2, 4:31 am, Timo Nieminen <t...(a)physics.uq.edu.au> wrote: > On May 2, 4:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > Let me ask you Edward or anyone to opine on a problem I have, > > (I'm studying 'Undersea Venting of Gases). > > > Allow me to attach a good quality balloon to a brick so it sinks into > > the Mariana Trench,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench > > enabling > 35000' depth. > > > Air is compressible, so doubling the pressure, 1/2's the volume, > > and doubles the air density (I think that's right?). > > 1 atmosphere of pressure is added every ~ 33' of water depth. > > I use water density = 800x sea level air density. > > > To compress air to the density of water needs 800 atmospheric > > pressures, or 800 x 33' = 26,400 ft of depth. > > If I understand correctly, at that point the bouyancy of the air in > > the balloon with go negative and want to sink. > > > That's why I'm curious about gas expulsions, such as O2, N2, > > below 26,400' from undersea vents. > > Well past the point where the ideal gas law is at all accurate, so > don't trust numbers from PV = const. Vapour pressure of nitrogen at > 300K is about 650 atmospheres, so your balloon won't have gas inside. > Still, could have gas at that depth if hot enough. If not, it just > isn't gas. Liquid N2 is less dense than water, so it would float up > anyway, and turn to gas when sufficiently shallow. Right, (thanks that's helpful) I had to look up the density of N2, but then I went to O2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_oxygen and LOX is more dense than H2O. If I understand correctly, dropping a balloon of O2 into the Mariana, at some deep depth the O2 liquifies, (as N2 would do), but the O2, being denser than H2O would sink down. Is that waht you all think? > Similar thing with water - stuff coming out of volcanic vents that > would be (mostly) water vapour if one the surface is just (mostly) hot > water at depth (e.g., 300C, about 600K). Understood. > Also similar thing with bubbles - high pressure is high pressure, > whether the pressure is due to the weight of overlying water or the > surface tension of a bubble. We melted toner (so for this toner, > T>180C iirc) suspended in water with no boiling - small scale, we'd > have needed micron-sized bubbles, and that's a lot of pressure there. Thanks Ken |