Deep Sea Gas Venting ?
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From: John Park on 7 May 2010 02:08 "Ken S. Tucker" (dynamics(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > On May 6, 4:50 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >> On May 6, 12:59 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: >> >> >> >> > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: >> >> > > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: >> > >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: >> > >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, >> > >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at >> > >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. >> > >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, >> > >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. >> > >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 >> > >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 >> > >> > > is expelled. >> > >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. >> > >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated >> > >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), >> > >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead >> > >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. >> >> > >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, >> > >> > > based on the carbon cycle. >> > >> > > Best Regards and Thanks >> > >> > > Ken S. Tucker >> > >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. >> > >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any >> > >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. >> >> > >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. >> > >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, >> > >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. >> >> > >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation >> > >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas >> > >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. >> >> > >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? >> >> > >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. >> >> > >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting >> > >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep >> > >> > trenches? >> >> > >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic >> > >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from >> > >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. >> > >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as >> > >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given >> > >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to >> > >> get Carbon. >> >> > I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at >> > 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is >> > converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at >> > 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? >> > --John Park >> > P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents? > > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? In the crust. And atom-for-atom you're mostly hydrogen. Your point? --John Park > >> Ken is evidently alreday convinced that the bubbles arising from >> submarine vents are *air* bubbles, despite a total lack of supporting >> data and a literal flood of data to the contrary. >> Tom Davidson >> Richmond, VA > > Tom, I have a question, what is heavier O2 or H20? > Ken
From: Ken S. Tucker on 7 May 2010 04:27 On May 6, 11:08 pm, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: .... > > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > > In the crust. And atom-for-atom you're mostly hydrogen. Your point? > --John Park http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen#Occurrence "Oxygen is the most abundant chemical element, by mass, in our biosphere, air, sea and land" If true, that was bridled at the time of Earths formation, some 6 billion years ago, (+/- 2 billion) What does that mean to you John Park? Regards Ken S. Tucker
From: John Park on 7 May 2010 11:31 "Ken S. Tucker" (dynamics(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > On May 6, 11:08 pm, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: >> "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > ... > >> > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? >> >> In the crust. And atom-for-atom you're mostly hydrogen. Your point? >> --John Park > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen#Occurrence > > "Oxygen is the most abundant chemical element, by mass, in our > biosphere, air, sea and land" > > If true, that was bridled at the time of Earths formation, > some 6 billion years ago, (+/- 2 billion) > What does that mean to you John Park? "Bridled"?? You think there were horses and riders 6 +/- 2 billion years ago? I'm not sure what you're asking, O hydrogen-based entity, but I suspect the answer is along the lines of: CO2, H2O, SiO2. --John Park
From: tadchem on 7 May 2010 18:18 On May 6, 9:26 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > On May 6, 4:50 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 12:59 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > > > > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > > On May 5, 1:07 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > >> On May 4, 4:16 pm, tadchem <tadc...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > >> > On May 4, 3:50 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca> wrote: > > > >> > > Thank you for your replies guys, > > > >> > > Most of us are interested about Earth, so a look at venting at > > > >> > > Mariana Trench pressure is of interest. > > > >> > > Here's my picture, the vented O2 sinks, the vented N2 floats, > > > >> > > and the vented H2O just becomes water. > > > >> > > Now, from the standpoint of deep ocean biology, the said O2 > > > >> > > can saturate the lower ocean depths, via pressure while N2 > > > >> > > is expelled. > > > >> > > So at the 'Bottom of the Sea' O2 based life could thrive. > > > >> > > When fish swim they use gills to collect O2, so I calculated > > > >> > > the figure 26,400' at which point O2 will sink (+/- some), > > > >> > > then O2 based life can thrive on sinking sediment, dead > > > >> > > whales imploding and stuff like that. > > > > >> > > That provides a bit more insight into how deep sea fish live, > > > >> > > based on the carbon cycle. > > > >> > > Best Regards and Thanks > > > >> > > Ken S. Tucker > > > >> > Pressure at the bottom of the Mariana trench is 108.6 megapascals. > > > >> > Assume a temperature of 4=B0 C for the 'best-case' scenario, as any > > > >> > higher temperature will only expand the gas, making it more buoyant. > > > > >> What you write is ok with me, you sound like and expert. > > > >> I'll use 33' depth underwater makes 15#/sq inch, =3D 1 atmosphere, > > > >> so 33,000 ft would be 1000 atmospheres of pressures. > > > > >> > Calculate (if you can) the density of oxygen using a suitable equation > > > >> > of state. Peng-Robinson or BWR should be good enough. The Ideal Gas > > > >> > Law is NOT acceptable at these pressures. > > > > >> > Will O2 bubbles sink at the bottom of the trench? > > > > >> Yes, I think so from the advice I've been given. > > > > >> > Bonus question: if fish use O2 for metabolism (and they do, converting > > > >> > it to CO2) what is the mechanism that regenerates O2 in the deep > > > >> > trenches? > > > > >> Well partially O2 from undersea vents, maybe more from oceanic > > > >> circulation, and other sources, the Carbon source is mainly from > > > >> dead organsims sinking down, though CO or petro may be source. > > > >> CH4 might be something that deep sea fish have evolved to use as > > > >> nurishment, after millions of years of evolution, is reasonable given > > > >> that plants learned (evolved) how to use sunlight to crack CO2, to > > > >> get Carbon. > > > > I think the argument goes this way: if oxygen dissolves in sea water at > > > 10 to 15 deg C and a pressure of one atmosphere, and much of it is > > > converted to carbon dioxide by fish, how could what's left form bubbles at > > > 0 to 5 deg C and several hundred atmospheres? > > > --John Park > > > P.S. ...oxygen from undersea vents? > > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > > > Ken is evidently alreday convinced that the bubbles arising from > > submarine vents are *air* bubbles, despite a total lack of supporting > > data and a literal flood of data to the contrary. > > Tom Davidson > > Richmond, VA > > Tom, I have a question, what is heavier O2 or H20? > Ken- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ...."heavier" in which sense? ....and how is this relevant to your fantasy of great quantities of air trapped under the ocean? Tom Davidson Richmond, VA
From: tadchem on 7 May 2010 18:27
On May 7, 11:31 am, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > > > > > > On May 6, 11:08 pm, af...(a)FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Park) wrote: > >> "Ken S. Tucker" (dynam...(a)vianet.on.ca) writes: > > ... > > >> > Is Oxygen the most abundant element in Earth? > > >> In the crust. And atom-for-atom you're mostly hydrogen. Your point? > >> --John Park > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen#Occurrence > > > "Oxygen is the most abundant chemical element, by mass, in our > > biosphere, air, sea and land" > > > If true, that was bridled at the time of Earths formation, > > some 6 billion years ago, (+/- 2 billion) > > What does that mean to you John Park? > > "Bridled"?? You think there were horses and riders 6 +/- 2 billion years > ago? > > I'm not sure what you're asking, O hydrogen-based entity, but I suspect the > answer is along the lines of: CO2, H2O, SiO2. > > --John Park- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Don't forget Al2O3 and FeO, Fe2O3, and Fe3O4. Nearly all the oxygen on earth is bound as oxides. There is an abundance of incompletely oxidized material (iron, neckel, etc.) in the crust and mantle that will quickly scavenge any free oxygen. Elemental oxygen is one of the most chemically reactive substances found on earth. Given the right conditions, it will even react with water: O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) = (aqueous sytem under pressure) > 2 H2O2 (liquid hydrogen peroxide) The reaction absorbs energy and is driven by LeChatelier's Principle http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/equilibria/lechatelier.html Tom Davidson Richmond, VA |