ECL logic SPICE models
in [Design]
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From: John Larkin on 11 Sep 2009 10:14 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:04:00 +0200, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote: >John Larkin a �crit : >> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>> model file? >>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>> >>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>> dropped my coffee cup. >> >> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. Hittite >> wants $200. >> >> John >> > >DTL? (Dollar Transfer Logic) The Hittite stuff has zero propagation delay, because nobody is buying it. John
From: Joerg on 11 Sep 2009 11:38 John Larkin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>> >>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>> model file? >>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>> >>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>> ;-) >>>>> >>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>> What is it you're trying to model? >>> >> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >> dropped my coffee cup. > > Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... Only? ... :-) Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden (assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. > ... Hittite wants $200. > Made and sold for one defense project and nobody else is buying? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 11 Sep 2009 11:52 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>> model file? >>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>> >>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>> dropped my coffee cup. >> >> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... > > >Only? ... :-) > >Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >(assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. > > >> ... Hittite wants $200. >> > >Made and sold for one defense project and nobody else is buying? Joerg, What sort of analog uses are you contemplating? E-mail me privately, I may know the very trick you're trying to use. I've been around ECL/PECL/CML a lot, having joined the Motorola crew... Narud, Capon Phillips, Sealbach... just when that work first began (1962). I've also done a lot of design work for Arizona Microtek... http://www.azmicrotek.com/ If you'd like an intro there, let me know. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Eight years ago, on September 11, around 6AM, 4 telephone calls in rapid succession, "Mom, Where's Dad, Is he flying?" My wife woke me and turned on the television. **** We will NEVER forget! We WILL get even! Apply salt to the Obama-slug ;-)
From: John Larkin on 11 Sep 2009 11:52 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>> model file? >>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>> >>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>> dropped my coffee cup. >> >> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... > > >Only? ... :-) > >Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >(assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. The only way you're going to get a heap of 5 GHz logic for $10 is to spin a custom IC and make tens of millions of them. $35 for a gate or a flipflop is OK if you're building a $5000 piece of test equipment. 8-port gigabit ethernet switches are in the $60 retail range now, and will surely be a lot cheaper soon. That's an amazing heap of fast logic. A single 10 MBPS ethernet interface used to cost as much as a nice new car. John
From: Joerg on 11 Sep 2009 11:59
John Larkin wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>>> model file? >>>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>>> >>>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>>> dropped my coffee cup. >>> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... >> >> Only? ... :-) >> >> Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >> (assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. > > The only way you're going to get a heap of 5 GHz logic for $10 is to > spin a custom IC and make tens of millions of them. $35 for a gate or > a flipflop is OK if you're building a $5000 piece of test equipment. > > 8-port gigabit ethernet switches are in the $60 retail range now, and > will surely be a lot cheaper soon. That's an amazing heap of fast > logic. A single 10 MBPS ethernet interface used to cost as much as a > nice new car. > Ok, large scale integrated stuff is a different game. But when $30 are charged for a single inverter I'll do it with a few BFP620 transistors. ft around 65GHz, SOT23, about 50 cents in qties :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |