ECL logic SPICE models
in [Design]
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From: John Larkin on 11 Sep 2009 12:20 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:59:24 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>>>> model file? >>>>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>>>> >>>>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>>>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>>>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>>>> dropped my coffee cup. >>>> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... >>> >>> Only? ... :-) >>> >>> Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >>> (assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. >> >> The only way you're going to get a heap of 5 GHz logic for $10 is to >> spin a custom IC and make tens of millions of them. $35 for a gate or >> a flipflop is OK if you're building a $5000 piece of test equipment. >> >> 8-port gigabit ethernet switches are in the $60 retail range now, and >> will surely be a lot cheaper soon. That's an amazing heap of fast >> logic. A single 10 MBPS ethernet interface used to cost as much as a >> nice new car. >> > >Ok, large scale integrated stuff is a different game. But when $30 are >charged for a single inverter I'll do it with a few BFP620 transistors. >ft around 65GHz, SOT23, about 50 cents in qties :-) I haven't had much luck doing picosecond-speed time-domain stuff with discrete bipolars. A 65 GHz SiGe transistor has a beta of 10 at 6 GHz, dropping at higher currents, and turns out to be a pretty pokey switch in real life. Package parasitics tend to make it an oscillator if you try to really use the speed potential. The narrowband RF boys can tune the parasitics out, but wideband is different. I have had good luck using discrete phemts as switches, but they're more like $1 or so. If you can tolerate 1-2 ns prop delays and 600 ps edges, some of the cmos TinyLogic parts are great, and in your price range. John
From: Jim Thompson on 11 Sep 2009 12:24 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:20:38 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:59:24 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >wrote: > [snip] >> >>Ok, large scale integrated stuff is a different game. But when $30 are >>charged for a single inverter I'll do it with a few BFP620 transistors. >>ft around 65GHz, SOT23, about 50 cents in qties :-) > >I haven't had much luck doing picosecond-speed time-domain stuff with >discrete bipolars. A 65 GHz SiGe transistor has a beta of 10 at 6 GHz, >dropping at higher currents, and turns out to be a pretty pokey switch >in real life. Package parasitics tend to make it an oscillator if you >try to really use the speed potential. The narrowband RF boys can tune >the parasitics out, but wideband is different. > >I have had good luck using discrete phemts as switches, but they're >more like $1 or so. > >If you can tolerate 1-2 ns prop delays and 600 ps edges, some of the >cmos TinyLogic parts are great, and in your price range. > >John > > For sure. Support designs by yours truly ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Eight years ago, on September 11, around 6AM, 4 telephone calls in rapid succession, "Mom, Where's Dad, Is he flying?" My wife woke me and turned on the television. **** We will NEVER forget! We WILL get even! Apply salt to the Obama-slug ;-)
From: Joerg on 11 Sep 2009 14:06 John Larkin wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:59:24 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> John Larkin wrote: >>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>>>>> model file? >>>>>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>>>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>>>>> >>>>>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>>>>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>>>>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>>>>> dropped my coffee cup. >>>>> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... >>>> Only? ... :-) >>>> >>>> Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >>>> (assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. >>> The only way you're going to get a heap of 5 GHz logic for $10 is to >>> spin a custom IC and make tens of millions of them. $35 for a gate or >>> a flipflop is OK if you're building a $5000 piece of test equipment. >>> >>> 8-port gigabit ethernet switches are in the $60 retail range now, and >>> will surely be a lot cheaper soon. That's an amazing heap of fast >>> logic. A single 10 MBPS ethernet interface used to cost as much as a >>> nice new car. >>> >> Ok, large scale integrated stuff is a different game. But when $30 are >> charged for a single inverter I'll do it with a few BFP620 transistors. >> ft around 65GHz, SOT23, about 50 cents in qties :-) > > I haven't had much luck doing picosecond-speed time-domain stuff with > discrete bipolars. A 65 GHz SiGe transistor has a beta of 10 at 6 GHz, > dropping at higher currents, and turns out to be a pretty pokey switch > in real life. Package parasitics tend to make it an oscillator if you > try to really use the speed potential. The narrowband RF boys can tune > the parasitics out, but wideband is different. > So far bipolars have been good to me, starting with the old BFS17 in the 80's. To this day I always keep a vial full of those on hand. Then faster and faster ones showed up. Only problem is that most are from large European companies and their sales channels are often, ahem, let's say sub-par. Take a look at some broadband stuff such as CATV amps. Many are done with discrete BJT, most likely for cost and 2nd-sourcing reasons. But yes, parasitics can get you and the layout is not at all trivial. > I have had good luck using discrete phemts as switches, but they're > more like $1 or so. > That I still have to try. > If you can tolerate 1-2 ns prop delays and 600 ps edges, some of the > cmos TinyLogic parts are great, and in your price range. > That's sometimes an order of magnitude too slow :-( -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Spehro Pefhany on 11 Sep 2009 16:56 On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>> model file? >>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>> >>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>> dropped my coffee cup. >> >> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... > > >Only? ... :-) > >Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >(assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. > > >> ... Hittite wants $200. >> > >Made and sold for one defense project and nobody else is buying? Cheap compared to high temperature, let alone space stuff.
From: Joerg on 11 Sep 2009 17:02
Spehro Pefhany wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:38:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:39:45 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:25:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:13 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gentlemen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone know of a source for SPICE models of ECL gates? >>>>>>>> Unfortunately ON Semi only supplies IBIS models :-( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know, I know, much of this will fall under trade secrets or NDAs and >>>>>>>> can't be shared. Just wondering why some companies seem reluctant to >>>>>>>> share this stuff. Makes no sense since providing models can only boost >>>>>>>> sales. No, not the models some of you might think about ... :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alternatively, is there a recipe about how to boil one out of an IBIS >>>>>>>> model file? >>>>>>> IBIS models only model the package. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have the Spice models... I designed much of it... I can't share it >>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>> Dang, I thought so :-( >>>>> What is it you're trying to model? >>>>> >>>> Mostly linear behavior and change of prop delays with chip temperature. >>>> But it's nothing for a project (yet), just kicking the tires. The newer >>>> 8GHz stuff looks very enticing but when I saw the prices I almost >>>> dropped my coffee cup. >>> Heck, the Onsemi GigaComm stuff is only about $35 a gate. ... >> >> Only? ... :-) >> >> Problem is, with many of my designs the whole solution including burden >> (assembly, additional rigging costs, etc.) has to be lower than that. >> >> >>> ... Hittite wants $200. >>> >> Made and sold for one defense project and nobody else is buying? > > Cheap compared to high temperature, let alone space stuff. > My last circuit for that market came in well under that. Lock, stock and barrel. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |