ECL logic SPICE models
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 12 Sep 2009 14:25 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:01:22 -0700, Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:51:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:38:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>>>>>> One issue I found with RF devices was that you can sometimes only obtain >>>>>>> small signal simulator models that aren't very helpful with pulse apps, >>>>>>> plus require software that costs more than your Volkswagen. Even with >>>>>>> big LDMOS parts I had that happen. One company (PolyFet) stuck out and >>>>>>> provided SPICE models. So the big competitor will be left out ... sorry, >>>>>>> NXP. >>>>>> I don't simulate this stuff, I test. Most microwave parts are >>>>>> characterized small-signal, S-params. Spice models are very rare in >>>>>> this business. I know things about some of these parts that the >>>>>> manufacturers don't know. >>>>>> >>>>> Lately I have simulated more, and then straight to layout. The one >>>>> that's in fab right now is a white-knuckle ride because I am using a >>>>> device in a weird way. Usually pans out though. >>>>> >>>>> What often amazes me is how close to abs max people (and sometimes app >>>>> notes) bias RF devices. When it says 7V they bias them to 5V or 6V on >>>>> the collector/drain. Some day a huge pulse finds its way into the input, >>>>> almost saturates the device, then it lets go, the inductor shoots up ... >>>>> phut. >>>> I've run 7-volt-rated MESfets at 18 volts, and 2 volt RF schottkies at >>>> 6. I sometimes test parts to destruction and then back off some. The >>>> performance is often worth the small risk. >>>> >>> I've seen that. But if you are a consultant and this goes into some >>> aircraft you can't design like that. Even with an indemnification clause >>> that can cause lots of grief should it go wrong in only one case. It's >>> got to be by the book. >>> >>> >>>> Lots of RF devices seem to have voltage ratings that assume an RF tank >>>> in the output, so that the actual instantaneous drain excursion is 0 >>>> to twice Vcc. The RF guys are really, really terrible when it comes to >>>> realtime specs. You're lucky to get any DC curves. More often there's >>>> an app circuit with an input match, an output match, and a gate bias >>>> trimpot. >>>> >>> All they really offer in many cases is a set of S-parameters. Since I >>> design a lot of pulse circuitry I almost do a rain dance every time >>> there is just a snippet of SPICE data. >> Somewhere in my bag-o-tricks is an S-Parameter-to-Spice-Model >> converter (and vice-versa). >> >> When I find it I'll post. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > > All my S-Parameter to Spice stuff has been updated on the SED page of > my website... except a good article by Microcap... get that from their > website, so I don't step on any copyright toes ;-) > Thanks. I assume you mean this link: http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CreateS-ParameterSUBCKTinPSpice.pdf Now I have to learn QuickBasic, whatever that is ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 12 Sep 2009 14:40 On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:25:35 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:01:22 -0700, Jim Thompson >> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:51:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:38:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>>>> One issue I found with RF devices was that you can sometimes only obtain >>>>>>>> small signal simulator models that aren't very helpful with pulse apps, >>>>>>>> plus require software that costs more than your Volkswagen. Even with >>>>>>>> big LDMOS parts I had that happen. One company (PolyFet) stuck out and >>>>>>>> provided SPICE models. So the big competitor will be left out ... sorry, >>>>>>>> NXP. >>>>>>> I don't simulate this stuff, I test. Most microwave parts are >>>>>>> characterized small-signal, S-params. Spice models are very rare in >>>>>>> this business. I know things about some of these parts that the >>>>>>> manufacturers don't know. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Lately I have simulated more, and then straight to layout. The one >>>>>> that's in fab right now is a white-knuckle ride because I am using a >>>>>> device in a weird way. Usually pans out though. >>>>>> >>>>>> What often amazes me is how close to abs max people (and sometimes app >>>>>> notes) bias RF devices. When it says 7V they bias them to 5V or 6V on >>>>>> the collector/drain. Some day a huge pulse finds its way into the input, >>>>>> almost saturates the device, then it lets go, the inductor shoots up ... >>>>>> phut. >>>>> I've run 7-volt-rated MESfets at 18 volts, and 2 volt RF schottkies at >>>>> 6. I sometimes test parts to destruction and then back off some. The >>>>> performance is often worth the small risk. >>>>> >>>> I've seen that. But if you are a consultant and this goes into some >>>> aircraft you can't design like that. Even with an indemnification clause >>>> that can cause lots of grief should it go wrong in only one case. It's >>>> got to be by the book. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Lots of RF devices seem to have voltage ratings that assume an RF tank >>>>> in the output, so that the actual instantaneous drain excursion is 0 >>>>> to twice Vcc. The RF guys are really, really terrible when it comes to >>>>> realtime specs. You're lucky to get any DC curves. More often there's >>>>> an app circuit with an input match, an output match, and a gate bias >>>>> trimpot. >>>>> >>>> All they really offer in many cases is a set of S-parameters. Since I >>>> design a lot of pulse circuitry I almost do a rain dance every time >>>> there is just a snippet of SPICE data. >>> Somewhere in my bag-o-tricks is an S-Parameter-to-Spice-Model >>> converter (and vice-versa). >>> >>> When I find it I'll post. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> All my S-Parameter to Spice stuff has been updated on the SED page of >> my website... except a good article by Microcap... get that from their >> website, so I don't step on any copyright toes ;-) >> > >Thanks. I assume you mean this link: > >http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CreateS-ParameterSUBCKTinPSpice.pdf > >Now I have to learn QuickBasic, whatever that is ;-) There are four articles there, each beginning (in the listing), "S-Param...", all of which are elucidating. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
From: Joerg on 12 Sep 2009 14:47 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:25:35 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:01:22 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:51:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:38:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>>>>> One issue I found with RF devices was that you can sometimes only obtain >>>>>>>>> small signal simulator models that aren't very helpful with pulse apps, >>>>>>>>> plus require software that costs more than your Volkswagen. Even with >>>>>>>>> big LDMOS parts I had that happen. One company (PolyFet) stuck out and >>>>>>>>> provided SPICE models. So the big competitor will be left out ... sorry, >>>>>>>>> NXP. >>>>>>>> I don't simulate this stuff, I test. Most microwave parts are >>>>>>>> characterized small-signal, S-params. Spice models are very rare in >>>>>>>> this business. I know things about some of these parts that the >>>>>>>> manufacturers don't know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lately I have simulated more, and then straight to layout. The one >>>>>>> that's in fab right now is a white-knuckle ride because I am using a >>>>>>> device in a weird way. Usually pans out though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What often amazes me is how close to abs max people (and sometimes app >>>>>>> notes) bias RF devices. When it says 7V they bias them to 5V or 6V on >>>>>>> the collector/drain. Some day a huge pulse finds its way into the input, >>>>>>> almost saturates the device, then it lets go, the inductor shoots up ... >>>>>>> phut. >>>>>> I've run 7-volt-rated MESfets at 18 volts, and 2 volt RF schottkies at >>>>>> 6. I sometimes test parts to destruction and then back off some. The >>>>>> performance is often worth the small risk. >>>>>> >>>>> I've seen that. But if you are a consultant and this goes into some >>>>> aircraft you can't design like that. Even with an indemnification clause >>>>> that can cause lots of grief should it go wrong in only one case. It's >>>>> got to be by the book. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Lots of RF devices seem to have voltage ratings that assume an RF tank >>>>>> in the output, so that the actual instantaneous drain excursion is 0 >>>>>> to twice Vcc. The RF guys are really, really terrible when it comes to >>>>>> realtime specs. You're lucky to get any DC curves. More often there's >>>>>> an app circuit with an input match, an output match, and a gate bias >>>>>> trimpot. >>>>>> >>>>> All they really offer in many cases is a set of S-parameters. Since I >>>>> design a lot of pulse circuitry I almost do a rain dance every time >>>>> there is just a snippet of SPICE data. >>>> Somewhere in my bag-o-tricks is an S-Parameter-to-Spice-Model >>>> converter (and vice-versa). >>>> >>>> When I find it I'll post. >>>> >>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> All my S-Parameter to Spice stuff has been updated on the SED page of >>> my website... except a good article by Microcap... get that from their >>> website, so I don't step on any copyright toes ;-) >>> >> Thanks. I assume you mean this link: >> >> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CreateS-ParameterSUBCKTinPSpice.pdf >> >> Now I have to learn QuickBasic, whatever that is ;-) > > There are four articles there, each beginning (in the listing), > "S-Param...", all of which are elucidating. > Unless I understand something wrong the first three are for extracting S-parameters from SPICE or PROBE (Orcad's version of SPICE). But maybe I'll read them again and some more elucidation will come :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 12 Sep 2009 14:51 On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:47:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:25:35 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:01:22 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:51:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:38:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One issue I found with RF devices was that you can sometimes only obtain >>>>>>>>>> small signal simulator models that aren't very helpful with pulse apps, >>>>>>>>>> plus require software that costs more than your Volkswagen. Even with >>>>>>>>>> big LDMOS parts I had that happen. One company (PolyFet) stuck out and >>>>>>>>>> provided SPICE models. So the big competitor will be left out ... sorry, >>>>>>>>>> NXP. >>>>>>>>> I don't simulate this stuff, I test. Most microwave parts are >>>>>>>>> characterized small-signal, S-params. Spice models are very rare in >>>>>>>>> this business. I know things about some of these parts that the >>>>>>>>> manufacturers don't know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lately I have simulated more, and then straight to layout. The one >>>>>>>> that's in fab right now is a white-knuckle ride because I am using a >>>>>>>> device in a weird way. Usually pans out though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What often amazes me is how close to abs max people (and sometimes app >>>>>>>> notes) bias RF devices. When it says 7V they bias them to 5V or 6V on >>>>>>>> the collector/drain. Some day a huge pulse finds its way into the input, >>>>>>>> almost saturates the device, then it lets go, the inductor shoots up ... >>>>>>>> phut. >>>>>>> I've run 7-volt-rated MESfets at 18 volts, and 2 volt RF schottkies at >>>>>>> 6. I sometimes test parts to destruction and then back off some. The >>>>>>> performance is often worth the small risk. >>>>>>> >>>>>> I've seen that. But if you are a consultant and this goes into some >>>>>> aircraft you can't design like that. Even with an indemnification clause >>>>>> that can cause lots of grief should it go wrong in only one case. It's >>>>>> got to be by the book. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lots of RF devices seem to have voltage ratings that assume an RF tank >>>>>>> in the output, so that the actual instantaneous drain excursion is 0 >>>>>>> to twice Vcc. The RF guys are really, really terrible when it comes to >>>>>>> realtime specs. You're lucky to get any DC curves. More often there's >>>>>>> an app circuit with an input match, an output match, and a gate bias >>>>>>> trimpot. >>>>>>> >>>>>> All they really offer in many cases is a set of S-parameters. Since I >>>>>> design a lot of pulse circuitry I almost do a rain dance every time >>>>>> there is just a snippet of SPICE data. >>>>> Somewhere in my bag-o-tricks is an S-Parameter-to-Spice-Model >>>>> converter (and vice-versa). >>>>> >>>>> When I find it I'll post. >>>>> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>> All my S-Parameter to Spice stuff has been updated on the SED page of >>>> my website... except a good article by Microcap... get that from their >>>> website, so I don't step on any copyright toes ;-) >>>> >>> Thanks. I assume you mean this link: >>> >>> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CreateS-ParameterSUBCKTinPSpice.pdf >>> >>> Now I have to learn QuickBasic, whatever that is ;-) >> >> There are four articles there, each beginning (in the listing), >> "S-Param...", all of which are elucidating. >> > >Unless I understand something wrong the first three are for extracting >S-parameters from SPICE or PROBE (Orcad's version of SPICE). > >But maybe I'll read them again and some more elucidation will come :-) Most math is bilateral ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
From: Joerg on 12 Sep 2009 14:55
Jim Thompson wrote: > On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:47:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:25:35 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:01:22 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:51:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:38:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:08 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One issue I found with RF devices was that you can sometimes only obtain >>>>>>>>>>> small signal simulator models that aren't very helpful with pulse apps, >>>>>>>>>>> plus require software that costs more than your Volkswagen. Even with >>>>>>>>>>> big LDMOS parts I had that happen. One company (PolyFet) stuck out and >>>>>>>>>>> provided SPICE models. So the big competitor will be left out ... sorry, >>>>>>>>>>> NXP. >>>>>>>>>> I don't simulate this stuff, I test. Most microwave parts are >>>>>>>>>> characterized small-signal, S-params. Spice models are very rare in >>>>>>>>>> this business. I know things about some of these parts that the >>>>>>>>>> manufacturers don't know. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lately I have simulated more, and then straight to layout. The one >>>>>>>>> that's in fab right now is a white-knuckle ride because I am using a >>>>>>>>> device in a weird way. Usually pans out though. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What often amazes me is how close to abs max people (and sometimes app >>>>>>>>> notes) bias RF devices. When it says 7V they bias them to 5V or 6V on >>>>>>>>> the collector/drain. Some day a huge pulse finds its way into the input, >>>>>>>>> almost saturates the device, then it lets go, the inductor shoots up ... >>>>>>>>> phut. >>>>>>>> I've run 7-volt-rated MESfets at 18 volts, and 2 volt RF schottkies at >>>>>>>> 6. I sometimes test parts to destruction and then back off some. The >>>>>>>> performance is often worth the small risk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've seen that. But if you are a consultant and this goes into some >>>>>>> aircraft you can't design like that. Even with an indemnification clause >>>>>>> that can cause lots of grief should it go wrong in only one case. It's >>>>>>> got to be by the book. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lots of RF devices seem to have voltage ratings that assume an RF tank >>>>>>>> in the output, so that the actual instantaneous drain excursion is 0 >>>>>>>> to twice Vcc. The RF guys are really, really terrible when it comes to >>>>>>>> realtime specs. You're lucky to get any DC curves. More often there's >>>>>>>> an app circuit with an input match, an output match, and a gate bias >>>>>>>> trimpot. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> All they really offer in many cases is a set of S-parameters. Since I >>>>>>> design a lot of pulse circuitry I almost do a rain dance every time >>>>>>> there is just a snippet of SPICE data. >>>>>> Somewhere in my bag-o-tricks is an S-Parameter-to-Spice-Model >>>>>> converter (and vice-versa). >>>>>> >>>>>> When I find it I'll post. >>>>>> >>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>>> All my S-Parameter to Spice stuff has been updated on the SED page of >>>>> my website... except a good article by Microcap... get that from their >>>>> website, so I don't step on any copyright toes ;-) >>>>> >>>> Thanks. I assume you mean this link: >>>> >>>> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CreateS-ParameterSUBCKTinPSpice.pdf >>>> >>>> Now I have to learn QuickBasic, whatever that is ;-) >>> There are four articles there, each beginning (in the listing), >>> "S-Param...", all of which are elucidating. >>> >> Unless I understand something wrong the first three are for extracting >> S-parameters from SPICE or PROBE (Orcad's version of SPICE). >> >> But maybe I'll read them again and some more elucidation will come :-) > > Most math is bilateral ;-) > Ok, true, I was lazy here. Thought about some SW-routine where you slap the datasheet on a scanner, press magic button, out comes SPICE sub-circuit :-))) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |