Electron and proton attraction by opposite charge
in [Relativity]
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From: Cwatters on 7 May 2010 05:50 "BURT" <macromitch(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:0fe38d48-fcbb-495a-9837-3efe12090fdc(a)t34g2000prd.googlegroups.com... On May 5, 3:47 am, Igor <thoov...(a)excite.com> wrote: > On May 4, 10:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > If the electric force has an opposite which acts as an attraction it > > would mean that the electron and protons ought to come together > > because of it. But you have to force these particles together so how > > can you say they attract one another? > > Learn some real physics and find out. > >But they don't come together under their supposed attraction. They >have to be forced. Please show me where I am wrong. Where is this >physics real if it doesn't even happen? > >Mitch Raemsch What does "together" mean exactly? It usually means at the same place. What's the probability of an electron being at any particular place?
From: PD on 7 May 2010 08:49 On May 6, 5:45 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 6, 2:57 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On May 6, 4:38 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On May 6, 12:56 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On May 6, 2:29 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On May 6, 12:00 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 1:56 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On May 6, 11:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 1:16 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 7:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On May 4, 9:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If the electric force has an opposite which acts as an attraction it > > > > > > > > > > > would mean that the electron and protons ought to come together > > > > > > > > > > > because of it. But you have to force these particles together so how > > > > > > > > > > > can you say they attract one another? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > No, it does NOT mean that electrons and protons ought to come together > > > > > > > > > > because of it. > > > > > > > > > > No that makes no sense that they are attractive but they don't come > > > > > > > > > together without force. > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > The reason is angular momentum. > > > > > > > > > > The simple test you can do in the town library where you make your > > > > > > > > > > posts is to swing a pail of water in a vertical circle. You'll note > > > > > > > > > > that if you swing fast enough, the water does not fall out of the pail > > > > > > > > > > onto your head, even when the pail is overhead and gravity is pulling > > > > > > > > > > the water downward. Note that gravity and the pressure from the sides > > > > > > > > > > and bottom of the pail are the only forces acting on the water. > > > > > > > > > > So, once you figure out why gravity doesn't make the water fall out of > > > > > > > > > > the pail onto your head when you do this, you'll understand perhaps > > > > > > > > > > why the moon doesn't fall into the earth, why the earth doesn't fall > > > > > > > > > > into the sun, and why the electron doesn't fall into the proton. > > > > > > > > > > Can youi please show how attraction doesn't bring them together? > > > > > > > > > Lets be sensible. > > > > > > > > > There's nothing like seeing things with your own eyes. This is why I > > > > > > > > suggested the pail of water trick, which you can actually do. > > > > > > > > > Then try to tell yourself what you're seeing doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > > > If it actually happens, it has to make sense. It's just that you > > > > > > > > haven't figured out how to make sense of it.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > If an electron and a proton have to be forced together it makes no > > > > > > > sense that they are attractive. > > > > > > > Who says they have to be forced together? > > > > > > Neutronium says they have to be forced together. > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > Are you talking about a wiki article?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Wackypedia thinks that science has a explanation to a rainbow when it > > > is all made up. That phenomenon doesn't yield to science. > > > > How can raindrops hang in a circular arc without falling? > > > Oh dear. Mitch, do you really believe this is what's claimed? > > > > Mitch Raemsch- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > What science claims is similar to the pot of gold but it is sciences > myth of an explanation and that will never work. I'm sorry, Mitch, but I see that there is a marked difference between the rainbow theory you have in your head and what is really scientifically understood about rainbows. > > Mitch Raemsch; Science can't explain a rainbow
From: john on 7 May 2010 11:13 On May 6, 8:58 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On May 5, 10:02 am, john <vega...(a)accesscomm.ca> wrote: > > > On May 4, 8:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > If the electric force has an opposite which acts as an attraction it > > > would mean that the electron and protons ought to come together > > > because of it. But you have to force these particles together so how > > > can you say they attract one another? > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > The electron and proton, given enough time > > How much time, John? Hydrogen atoms have been around for an awfully > long time. > > > > > and no energy input, Well, I did say 'and no energy input', which is never going to happen, obviously, because neutrinos are whizzing by in every which way constantly being absorbed by the galaxies, and their scaled-down counterparts coming from electrons are evrywhere being absorbed by protons to keep the cycle going. An electron radiates constantly, but it will never crash into the proton because the proton is absorbing that same radiation and using it to replace what is being burned in the electron. john will recombine > > into the virtual pair they once were. > > > When the black hole came along, however it was > > produced, all the virtual pairs within its influence > > were given extreme spin. > > > Since the two opposite charges, clinging > > together by their attraction to each other, > > are given the same extreme spin, they repel > > each other by their magnetism, and, absorbing > > a neutrino, they become oppositely-charged > > high-energy particles and are shot out the > > jets of the black hole. > > > Eventually, by the attraction of their electric charge, they > > come together as suns. > > > The HEPs at the suns' centers are fused > > into atoms, with the electron being > > brought into the proton's sphere and > > neutrinos and energy are given off. > > > The neutrinos are everywhere stars are and > > are constantly being absorbed by galactic > > centers as infalling matter is spun back into HEPs > > and ejected out the jets. Absorption of these > > neutrinos causes galaxies to push on each other. > > This is the gravity that affects galaxies. > > > The gravity affecting (not effecting!!!) matter comes from this > > same process taking place within electrons > > and protons. > > > john- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: ben6993 on 7 May 2010 11:21 On May 6, 10:38 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 6, 12:56 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 2:29 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On May 6, 12:00 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On May 6, 1:56 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On May 6, 11:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 1:16 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On May 6, 7:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On May 4, 9:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If the electric force has an opposite which acts as an attraction it > > > > > > > > > would mean that the electron and protons ought to come together > > > > > > > > > because of it. But you have to force these particles together so how > > > > > > > > > can you say they attract one another? > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > No, it does NOT mean that electrons and protons ought to come together > > > > > > > > because of it. > > > > > > > > No that makes no sense that they are attractive but they don't come > > > > > > > together without force. > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > The reason is angular momentum. > > > > > > > > The simple test you can do in the town library where you make your > > > > > > > > posts is to swing a pail of water in a vertical circle. You'll note > > > > > > > > that if you swing fast enough, the water does not fall out of the pail > > > > > > > > onto your head, even when the pail is overhead and gravity is pulling > > > > > > > > the water downward. Note that gravity and the pressure from the sides > > > > > > > > and bottom of the pail are the only forces acting on the water. > > > > > > > > So, once you figure out why gravity doesn't make the water fall out of > > > > > > > > the pail onto your head when you do this, you'll understand perhaps > > > > > > > > why the moon doesn't fall into the earth, why the earth doesn't fall > > > > > > > > into the sun, and why the electron doesn't fall into the proton. > > > > > > > > Can youi please show how attraction doesn't bring them together? > > > > > > > Lets be sensible. > > > > > > > There's nothing like seeing things with your own eyes. This is why I > > > > > > suggested the pail of water trick, which you can actually do. > > > > > > > Then try to tell yourself what you're seeing doesn't make sense.. > > > > > > > If it actually happens, it has to make sense. It's just that you > > > > > > haven't figured out how to make sense of it.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > If an electron and a proton have to be forced together it makes no > > > > > sense that they are attractive. > > > > > Who says they have to be forced together? > > > > Neutronium says they have to be forced together. > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > Are you talking about a wiki article?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Wackypedia thinks that science has a explanation to a rainbow when it > is all made up. That phenomenon doesn't yield to science. > > How can raindrops hang in a circular arc without falling? > > Mitch Raemsch- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - As I understand it, everyone has their own rainbow. You can make your own with a spray bottle of water on a sunny day. It is like being in the just the right position to be dazzled by sunlight reflected reflected from an office block window. There are not many office windows open at the correct angle, but there can be lots of water droplets available.. The question about the electron and proton .... I don't understand why 'forcing' was mentioned. Not all material orbits: Comet Shoemaker Levy crashed into Jupiter. The question should be 'do some electrons manage to be pulled into the nucleus and get absorbed there'? The limitation on how many electrons can be in each shell may decide whether electrons can get into into the nucleus. The electron seems to need too much room to cater for its wave nature to get into and stay in the nucleus? If the charges in the nucleus are moving/vibrating, that might create a magnetic field which could deflect the incoming electron. But I am way beyond what I know here... Also, any electrons in outer shells could repel free electrons before they approached the nucleus.
From: Androcles on 7 May 2010 11:58
"ben6993" <ben6993(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a9ab2242-2a85-488d-aa6e-9cd17951f56c(a)k29g2000yqh.googlegroups.com... On May 6, 10:38 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 6, 12:56 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 2:29 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On May 6, 12:00 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On May 6, 1:56 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On May 6, 11:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 6, 1:16 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On May 6, 7:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On May 4, 9:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If the electric force has an opposite which acts as an > > > > > > > > > attraction it > > > > > > > > > would mean that the electron and protons ought to come > > > > > > > > > together > > > > > > > > > because of it. But you have to force these particles > > > > > > > > > together so how > > > > > > > > > can you say they attract one another? > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > No, it does NOT mean that electrons and protons ought to > > > > > > > > come together > > > > > > > > because of it. > > > > > > > > No that makes no sense that they are attractive but they don't > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > together without force. > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > The reason is angular momentum. > > > > > > > > The simple test you can do in the town library where you > > > > > > > > make your > > > > > > > > posts is to swing a pail of water in a vertical circle. > > > > > > > > You'll note > > > > > > > > that if you swing fast enough, the water does not fall out > > > > > > > > of the pail > > > > > > > > onto your head, even when the pail is overhead and gravity > > > > > > > > is pulling > > > > > > > > the water downward. Note that gravity and the pressure from > > > > > > > > the sides > > > > > > > > and bottom of the pail are the only forces acting on the > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > So, once you figure out why gravity doesn't make the water > > > > > > > > fall out of > > > > > > > > the pail onto your head when you do this, you'll understand > > > > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > > > why the moon doesn't fall into the earth, why the earth > > > > > > > > doesn't fall > > > > > > > > into the sun, and why the electron doesn't fall into the > > > > > > > > proton. > > > > > > > > Can youi please show how attraction doesn't bring them > > > > > > > together? > > > > > > > Lets be sensible. > > > > > > > There's nothing like seeing things with your own eyes. This is > > > > > > why I > > > > > > suggested the pail of water trick, which you can actually do. > > > > > > > Then try to tell yourself what you're seeing doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > If it actually happens, it has to make sense. It's just that you > > > > > > haven't figured out how to make sense of it.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > If an electron and a proton have to be forced together it makes no > > > > > sense that they are attractive. > > > > > Who says they have to be forced together? > > > > Neutronium says they have to be forced together. > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > Are you talking about a wiki article?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Wackypedia thinks that science has a explanation to a rainbow when it > is all made up. That phenomenon doesn't yield to science. > > How can raindrops hang in a circular arc without falling? > > Mitch Raemsch- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - As I understand it, everyone has their own rainbow. ============================================= Before you go there, first note that the idiot Raemsch is challenging the existence of the rainbow itself, not the explanation for its existence. You are likely to get into futile discussions that way. ============================================= You can make your own with a spray bottle of water on a sunny day. It is like being in the just the right position to be dazzled by sunlight reflected reflected from an office block window. There are not many office windows open at the correct angle, but there can be lots of water droplets available.. The question about the electron and proton .... I don't understand why 'forcing' was mentioned. Not all material orbits: Comet Shoemaker Levy crashed into Jupiter. The question should be 'do some electrons manage to be pulled into the nucleus and get absorbed there'? The limitation on how many electrons can be in each shell may decide whether electrons can get into into the nucleus. The electron seems to need too much room to cater for its wave nature to get into and stay in the nucleus? If the charges in the nucleus are moving/vibrating, that might create a magnetic field which could deflect the incoming electron. But I am way beyond what I know here... Also, any electrons in outer shells could repel free electrons before they approached the nucleus. ============================================= That's the problem with analogies. They never fit the facts perfectly. Once you've created the solar system model of the atom you've automatically made certain assumptions without realizing it, such as giving the electron mass and a gravitational attraction to the nucleus as well as inertia to fly on by and maintain an orbit. Then when you mentally take out the angular momentum you end up wondering why it doesn't just fall into the nucleus and cancel the charges, creating a neutron from a proton. Since this doesn't happen, perhaps we have the wrong model. |