How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: RogerN on 2 Jan 2010 02:08 Thanks for the replies, looks like mostly surf boards and dead bug for the breadboard testing. I see that for many designs you go straight to the board, any recommended software for hobbiest budget. LT Spice and Eagle perhaps? Years ago I bought the home version of Electronics Workbench 5 with the board router, is that worth learning? RogerN
From: Joerg on 2 Jan 2010 10:23 krw wrote: > On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:30:50 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw wrote: >>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:35:41 +0000, Raveninghorde >>> <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: >>> >> [...] >> >>>> I just had to put my money on the table and replace it. >>>> >>>> The next step is to upgrade the pick and place. Even with second user >>>> kit that will be real money. The pick and places are again TWS >>>> Automation but we need better. 0603 is a struggle so I don't go below >>>> 0805 but more importantly more and more ICs are too fine pitch and now >>>> with Altera BGAs on the horizon... >>> We can do 0603s, BGAs down to .8mm, and QFPs down to .5mm, without >>> issues. They're going to barf when I demand 0402s, though. The BGA >>> pitch really cramps my style too. Actel has a very limited package >>> selection with a pitch that large (they like .5mm and .4mm) so I'm >>> more or less being forced into Altera. Not that I mind Altera, but I >>> don't like to be in a position without an alternative. It's good to >>> have them fight over your business. ;-) >>> >> 0402 is a problem? Then it's high time to either upgrade the equipment >> or contract out. > > We'd need new feeders for the P-n-P machine. Not a huge deal but > they're having too many problems now. When we start using any real > FPGAs 0402s will come with them. I've already been warning them. ;-) > >>>>>> Now I know I have boards out there with suspect transistors:( >>>>> Not a good feeling. >>>>> >>>>>> I had to get LEDs put onto aluminium backed boards elsewhere as there >>>>>> was no chance of this machine coping. >>>>>> >>>>>> The new beast, 1.3 tonnes, is a second hand Ersa Hotflow-5 made in >>>>>> Germany and cost about twice as much for the new TWS one, �12k. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/photos/hotflow.jpg >>>>> That's more the size I'd expect. I don't recall what we're using. >>>>> Again, I'm not an IE. >>>>> >>>>>> Spec here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/hf5.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> We had to upgrade ventillation and electrics for another �2k. >>>>> AIUI, our line came with the building. ;-) We are seriously >>>>> considering a new oven because of our problems. I'm told that there >>>>> is all sorts of surplus equipment available out there. >>>> It's either keep the kit reasonably up to date or pull out of the game >>>> as far as I am concerned. >>> We really don't need the bleeding edge but it's getting hard to buy >>> anything else. We don't keep the line busy (test and rework is the >>> bottleneck) but the owner doesn't trust contract manufacturers. But >>> you're right, you have to ride the wave, though perhaps not at the >>> leading edge. >> >> Why doesn't he trust them? > > We're a small company and up until recently, very seasonal (almost all > income was in a three-month window). I'm told the worry was a that > large, more "important", customer might bump our production at a CM. A > month late and we wouldn't be set back a month but a year. The > company couldn't survive that so we build our own; insurance. > One of my clients is like that, seasonal sales. They never had an in-house board production. Never will, even if the company grows to five times it's size. >> I really never saw any hardcore problems, >> most of my clients contract out. In many cases full turn-key. The only >> situation that I could imagine where in-house assembly makes sense is if >> you do super confidential stuff. Even high volume doesn't necessarily >> justify it because then you can get some really sweet deals in Asia. > > The problem is that it's *low* volume and very seasonal. If we did a > couple hundred systems a year it was a lot. We've recently added > higher volume products (still only 2-5K per year) in a year-round > market. This helps the production situation but the original > market/products still have the same issues. There's reliable places that cater to that kind of situation. For example this one, a family-run business like in the good old days: http://www.wdburch.com/ Even when I asked them for a small 10-board prototype run for a new client they did not flinch, they just ran it and the week after we had the boards. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 2 Jan 2010 10:30 RogerN wrote: > Thanks for the replies, looks like mostly surf boards and dead bug for the > breadboard testing. > > I see that for many designs you go straight to the board, any recommended > software for hobbiest budget. LT Spice and Eagle perhaps? ... Yep, that's what is being used here in the office although not for hobby. I believe you can legally use the Eagle free version if you do not design for profit. That would reduce your required budget for CAD to zero :-) > ... Years ago I > bought the home version of Electronics Workbench 5 with the board router, is > that worth learning? > IMHO no. LTSpice is the standard these days for simulations, OrCad is the one for schemtic entry and PADS and a few others for layout. But for hobby Eagle should do just fine. It is nearly perfect but has one issue that prevents it from being used on huge designs: No hierarchy. They realy blew that part, IMHO. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: RST Engineering on 2 Jan 2010 11:30 On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 15:58:39 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >> Where they buy & sell old politicians? ;-) >> > >No, where they move them from a plush chair into a plum job :-) Definition of Honest Politician: Once he's bought, he stays bought. Jim
From: RST Engineering on 2 Jan 2010 11:44
On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 14:22:19 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)My-Web-Site.com/Snicker> wrote: > >Indeed! I haven't had a "fireworks" event since ~1980. > > ...Jim Thompson I average two to three a semester, mostly bassackwards tantalums in student breadboards, but when they turn the rectifier bridge around it really gets interesting. Jim |