How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: krw on 2 Jan 2010 13:28 On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 07:23:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >krw wrote: >> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:30:50 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw wrote: >>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:35:41 +0000, Raveninghorde >>>> <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: >>>> >>> [...] >>> >>>>> I just had to put my money on the table and replace it. >>>>> >>>>> The next step is to upgrade the pick and place. Even with second user >>>>> kit that will be real money. The pick and places are again TWS >>>>> Automation but we need better. 0603 is a struggle so I don't go below >>>>> 0805 but more importantly more and more ICs are too fine pitch and now >>>>> with Altera BGAs on the horizon... >>>> We can do 0603s, BGAs down to .8mm, and QFPs down to .5mm, without >>>> issues. They're going to barf when I demand 0402s, though. The BGA >>>> pitch really cramps my style too. Actel has a very limited package >>>> selection with a pitch that large (they like .5mm and .4mm) so I'm >>>> more or less being forced into Altera. Not that I mind Altera, but I >>>> don't like to be in a position without an alternative. It's good to >>>> have them fight over your business. ;-) >>>> >>> 0402 is a problem? Then it's high time to either upgrade the equipment >>> or contract out. >> >> We'd need new feeders for the P-n-P machine. Not a huge deal but >> they're having too many problems now. When we start using any real >> FPGAs 0402s will come with them. I've already been warning them. ;-) >> >>>>>>> Now I know I have boards out there with suspect transistors:( >>>>>> Not a good feeling. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I had to get LEDs put onto aluminium backed boards elsewhere as there >>>>>>> was no chance of this machine coping. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The new beast, 1.3 tonnes, is a second hand Ersa Hotflow-5 made in >>>>>>> Germany and cost about twice as much for the new TWS one, �12k. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/photos/hotflow.jpg >>>>>> That's more the size I'd expect. I don't recall what we're using. >>>>>> Again, I'm not an IE. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Spec here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/hf5.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We had to upgrade ventillation and electrics for another �2k. >>>>>> AIUI, our line came with the building. ;-) We are seriously >>>>>> considering a new oven because of our problems. I'm told that there >>>>>> is all sorts of surplus equipment available out there. >>>>> It's either keep the kit reasonably up to date or pull out of the game >>>>> as far as I am concerned. >>>> We really don't need the bleeding edge but it's getting hard to buy >>>> anything else. We don't keep the line busy (test and rework is the >>>> bottleneck) but the owner doesn't trust contract manufacturers. But >>>> you're right, you have to ride the wave, though perhaps not at the >>>> leading edge. >>> >>> Why doesn't he trust them? >> >> We're a small company and up until recently, very seasonal (almost all >> income was in a three-month window). I'm told the worry was a that >> large, more "important", customer might bump our production at a CM. A >> month late and we wouldn't be set back a month but a year. The >> company couldn't survive that so we build our own; insurance. >> > >One of my clients is like that, seasonal sales. They never had an >in-house board production. Never will, even if the company grows to five >times it's size. The owner likes to have control over the entire process. It is his money. >>> I really never saw any hardcore problems, >>> most of my clients contract out. In many cases full turn-key. The only >>> situation that I could imagine where in-house assembly makes sense is if >>> you do super confidential stuff. Even high volume doesn't necessarily >>> justify it because then you can get some really sweet deals in Asia. >> >> The problem is that it's *low* volume and very seasonal. If we did a >> couple hundred systems a year it was a lot. We've recently added >> higher volume products (still only 2-5K per year) in a year-round >> market. This helps the production situation but the original >> market/products still have the same issues. > > >There's reliable places that cater to that kind of situation. For >example this one, a family-run business like in the good old days: > >http://www.wdburch.com/ > >Even when I asked them for a small 10-board prototype run for a new >client they did not flinch, they just ran it and the week after we had >the boards. I'll have to keep them in mind (may come looking for the name again later). We are production limited now and they have a pile of new products they'd like to build. Summers are a triple problem since, in addition to new builds, everything comes back from the field for refurb. Add these newer non-seasonal products (we're production limited on now) and something is going to give.
From: Joerg on 2 Jan 2010 14:09 krw wrote: > On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 07:23:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw wrote: >>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:30:50 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> krw wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:35:41 +0000, Raveninghorde >>>>> <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>> I just had to put my money on the table and replace it. >>>>>> >>>>>> The next step is to upgrade the pick and place. Even with second user >>>>>> kit that will be real money. The pick and places are again TWS >>>>>> Automation but we need better. 0603 is a struggle so I don't go below >>>>>> 0805 but more importantly more and more ICs are too fine pitch and now >>>>>> with Altera BGAs on the horizon... >>>>> We can do 0603s, BGAs down to .8mm, and QFPs down to .5mm, without >>>>> issues. They're going to barf when I demand 0402s, though. The BGA >>>>> pitch really cramps my style too. Actel has a very limited package >>>>> selection with a pitch that large (they like .5mm and .4mm) so I'm >>>>> more or less being forced into Altera. Not that I mind Altera, but I >>>>> don't like to be in a position without an alternative. It's good to >>>>> have them fight over your business. ;-) >>>>> >>>> 0402 is a problem? Then it's high time to either upgrade the equipment >>>> or contract out. >>> We'd need new feeders for the P-n-P machine. Not a huge deal but >>> they're having too many problems now. When we start using any real >>> FPGAs 0402s will come with them. I've already been warning them. ;-) >>> >>>>>>>> Now I know I have boards out there with suspect transistors:( >>>>>>> Not a good feeling. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had to get LEDs put onto aluminium backed boards elsewhere as there >>>>>>>> was no chance of this machine coping. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The new beast, 1.3 tonnes, is a second hand Ersa Hotflow-5 made in >>>>>>>> Germany and cost about twice as much for the new TWS one, �12k. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/photos/hotflow.jpg >>>>>>> That's more the size I'd expect. I don't recall what we're using. >>>>>>> Again, I'm not an IE. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Spec here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/hf5.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We had to upgrade ventillation and electrics for another �2k. >>>>>>> AIUI, our line came with the building. ;-) We are seriously >>>>>>> considering a new oven because of our problems. I'm told that there >>>>>>> is all sorts of surplus equipment available out there. >>>>>> It's either keep the kit reasonably up to date or pull out of the game >>>>>> as far as I am concerned. >>>>> We really don't need the bleeding edge but it's getting hard to buy >>>>> anything else. We don't keep the line busy (test and rework is the >>>>> bottleneck) but the owner doesn't trust contract manufacturers. But >>>>> you're right, you have to ride the wave, though perhaps not at the >>>>> leading edge. >>>> Why doesn't he trust them? >>> We're a small company and up until recently, very seasonal (almost all >>> income was in a three-month window). I'm told the worry was a that >>> large, more "important", customer might bump our production at a CM. A >>> month late and we wouldn't be set back a month but a year. The >>> company couldn't survive that so we build our own; insurance. >>> >> One of my clients is like that, seasonal sales. They never had an >> in-house board production. Never will, even if the company grows to five >> times it's size. > > The owner likes to have control over the entire process. It is his > money. > The last sentence is the reason why I don't understand :-) Seriously, if you add up all the overhead and everything, that's when we realized in one company that we had almost no other choice but to contract out. >>>> I really never saw any hardcore problems, >>>> most of my clients contract out. In many cases full turn-key. The only >>>> situation that I could imagine where in-house assembly makes sense is if >>>> you do super confidential stuff. Even high volume doesn't necessarily >>>> justify it because then you can get some really sweet deals in Asia. >>> The problem is that it's *low* volume and very seasonal. If we did a >>> couple hundred systems a year it was a lot. We've recently added >>> higher volume products (still only 2-5K per year) in a year-round >>> market. This helps the production situation but the original >>> market/products still have the same issues. >> >> There's reliable places that cater to that kind of situation. For >> example this one, a family-run business like in the good old days: >> >> http://www.wdburch.com/ >> >> Even when I asked them for a small 10-board prototype run for a new >> client they did not flinch, they just ran it and the week after we had >> the boards. > > I'll have to keep them in mind (may come looking for the name again > later). We are production limited now and they have a pile of new > products they'd like to build. Summers are a triple problem since, in > addition to new builds, everything comes back from the field for > refurb. Add these newer non-seasonal products (we're production > limited on now) and something is going to give. Good point. This would also be a nice way to justify testing one of those contract assembly houses. Give them a few hundred boards and see how they stack up. I bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. I was. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: whit3rd on 2 Jan 2010 14:22 On Jan 1, 5:42 am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Araldit is a 2 component glue. > It sets faster when heated too. So, to us US types, Araldit :== epoxy (resin + hardener) There are polyester resin/hardener things, too, but they aren't glue- like. > Bison kit is a one component, apply to both sides, wait 3 minutes, push together glue > from a tube. Thus, in a US catalog, Bison kit :== contact cement Not necessarily from a tube, I've seen bottles, rattle-can sprays, and paintcans.
From: Jan Panteltje on 2 Jan 2010 14:43 On a sunny day (Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:22:02 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd <whit3rd(a)gmail.com> wrote in <dda0fd2b-935b-4050-8575-ac5378183c81(a)x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>: >On Jan 1, 5:42�am, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealm...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Araldit is a 2 component glue. >> It sets faster when heated too. > >So, to us US types, Araldit :== epoxy (resin + hardener) >There are polyester resin/hardener things, too, but they aren't glue- >like. > >> Bison kit is a one component, apply to both sides, wait 3 minutes, push t= >ogether glue >> from a tube. > >Thus, in a US catalog, Bison kit :== contact cement >Not necessarily from a tube, I've seen bottles, rattle-can sprays, >and >paintcans. Yes I have a can of it somewhere too.
From: krw on 2 Jan 2010 16:20
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 11:09:03 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >krw wrote: >> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 07:23:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw wrote: >>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:30:50 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> krw wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:35:41 +0000, Raveninghorde >>>>>> <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>>> I just had to put my money on the table and replace it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The next step is to upgrade the pick and place. Even with second user >>>>>>> kit that will be real money. The pick and places are again TWS >>>>>>> Automation but we need better. 0603 is a struggle so I don't go below >>>>>>> 0805 but more importantly more and more ICs are too fine pitch and now >>>>>>> with Altera BGAs on the horizon... >>>>>> We can do 0603s, BGAs down to .8mm, and QFPs down to .5mm, without >>>>>> issues. They're going to barf when I demand 0402s, though. The BGA >>>>>> pitch really cramps my style too. Actel has a very limited package >>>>>> selection with a pitch that large (they like .5mm and .4mm) so I'm >>>>>> more or less being forced into Altera. Not that I mind Altera, but I >>>>>> don't like to be in a position without an alternative. It's good to >>>>>> have them fight over your business. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> 0402 is a problem? Then it's high time to either upgrade the equipment >>>>> or contract out. >>>> We'd need new feeders for the P-n-P machine. Not a huge deal but >>>> they're having too many problems now. When we start using any real >>>> FPGAs 0402s will come with them. I've already been warning them. ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>> Now I know I have boards out there with suspect transistors:( >>>>>>>> Not a good feeling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I had to get LEDs put onto aluminium backed boards elsewhere as there >>>>>>>>> was no chance of this machine coping. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The new beast, 1.3 tonnes, is a second hand Ersa Hotflow-5 made in >>>>>>>>> Germany and cost about twice as much for the new TWS one, �12k. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/photos/hotflow.jpg >>>>>>>> That's more the size I'd expect. I don't recall what we're using. >>>>>>>> Again, I'm not an IE. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Spec here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.zen88234.zen.co.uk/hf5.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We had to upgrade ventillation and electrics for another �2k. >>>>>>>> AIUI, our line came with the building. ;-) We are seriously >>>>>>>> considering a new oven because of our problems. I'm told that there >>>>>>>> is all sorts of surplus equipment available out there. >>>>>>> It's either keep the kit reasonably up to date or pull out of the game >>>>>>> as far as I am concerned. >>>>>> We really don't need the bleeding edge but it's getting hard to buy >>>>>> anything else. We don't keep the line busy (test and rework is the >>>>>> bottleneck) but the owner doesn't trust contract manufacturers. But >>>>>> you're right, you have to ride the wave, though perhaps not at the >>>>>> leading edge. >>>>> Why doesn't he trust them? >>>> We're a small company and up until recently, very seasonal (almost all >>>> income was in a three-month window). I'm told the worry was a that >>>> large, more "important", customer might bump our production at a CM. A >>>> month late and we wouldn't be set back a month but a year. The >>>> company couldn't survive that so we build our own; insurance. >>>> >>> One of my clients is like that, seasonal sales. They never had an >>> in-house board production. Never will, even if the company grows to five >>> times it's size. >> >> The owner likes to have control over the entire process. It is his >> money. >> > >The last sentence is the reason why I don't understand :-) Some buy insurance, some don't. Our margins are quite high and the insurance is affordable. >Seriously, if you add up all the overhead and everything, that's when we >realized in one company that we had almost no other choice but to >contract out. You go to China, too. That is something he would *never* do. >>>>> I really never saw any hardcore problems, >>>>> most of my clients contract out. In many cases full turn-key. The only >>>>> situation that I could imagine where in-house assembly makes sense is if >>>>> you do super confidential stuff. Even high volume doesn't necessarily >>>>> justify it because then you can get some really sweet deals in Asia. >>>> The problem is that it's *low* volume and very seasonal. If we did a >>>> couple hundred systems a year it was a lot. We've recently added >>>> higher volume products (still only 2-5K per year) in a year-round >>>> market. This helps the production situation but the original >>>> market/products still have the same issues. >>> >>> There's reliable places that cater to that kind of situation. For >>> example this one, a family-run business like in the good old days: >>> >>> http://www.wdburch.com/ >>> >>> Even when I asked them for a small 10-board prototype run for a new >>> client they did not flinch, they just ran it and the week after we had >>> the boards. >> >> I'll have to keep them in mind (may come looking for the name again >> later). We are production limited now and they have a pile of new >> products they'd like to build. Summers are a triple problem since, in >> addition to new builds, everything comes back from the field for >> refurb. Add these newer non-seasonal products (we're production >> limited on now) and something is going to give. > > >Good point. This would also be a nice way to justify testing one of >those contract assembly houses. Give them a few hundred boards and see >how they stack up. I bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. I was. I'm sure everything would go right, until they don't. Really, our other products aren't nearly so deadline driven but are capacity limited. It would be smart to off-load some of them. We did contract our battery charger (design and production). After some startup grief, that seems to be going well. It was cheaper than building it in house, except it looks cheap. ...at least the prototype does. |