Jihad needs scientists
in [Design]
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From: MooseFET on 19 Mar 2007 21:27 On Mar 19, 7:43 am, "nonse...(a)unsettled.com" <nonse...(a)unsettled.com> wrote: > MooseFET wrote: [....] > >>For those ignorant who claim that CO2 has oxygen present in > >>it, the experiment becomes just a bit more complicated. The > >>easiest approach is to procure an argon cylinder and displace > >>the air in your container with argon. > > Argon is easy to get from a welding supply house. It will work a > > little better than N2 because it is heavier. > > The "argon" used in welding is usually mixed with CO2. > They call it argon because it is mostly argon. I wasn't going to spill the beans. > > You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam > > filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low > > pressures: > > > P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4 > > True, but.... Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero rarely happen. > To get a vacuum you have to have containment. No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be held in by the vacuume. The amount of gun powder needed to prove that it will explode is very near zero.
From: nonsense on 20 Mar 2007 05:52 MooseFET wrote: > On Mar 19, 7:43 am, "nonse...(a)unsettled.com" <nonse...(a)unsettled.com> > wrote: > >>MooseFET wrote: > > [....] > >>>>For those ignorant who claim that CO2 has oxygen present in >>>>it, the experiment becomes just a bit more complicated. The >>>>easiest approach is to procure an argon cylinder and displace >>>>the air in your container with argon. >>> >>>Argon is easy to get from a welding supply house. It will work a >>>little better than N2 because it is heavier. >> >>The "argon" used in welding is usually mixed with CO2. >>They call it argon because it is mostly argon. > > > I wasn't going to spill the beans. > > >>>You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam >>>filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low >>>pressures: >> >>> P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4 >> >>True, but.... > > > Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero > rarely happen. If we're into corrections then start with your misspelling of Torr. I assumed you were willing to go lower than the "normal" 0 Fahrenheit. Rather ordinary lab freezers go to -86C while cooling using expansion of nitrogen gets much lower. You're going to haw to redefine freezer to get to the 50 Torr you proposed. >>To get a vacuum you have to have containment. > No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be > held in by the vacuume. Vacuum. The operative word is can. Through a longer thermal cycle from ambient to some low temperature most stoppers will leak. > The amount of gun powder needed to prove that it will explode is very > near zero. And then, in a "stoppered" container you're left with the problem of introducing ignition. This has gone waaaaaayyyyy out of the domestic kitchen league.
From: jmfbahciv on 20 Mar 2007 07:46 In article <1174313536.512242.172850(a)n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, "MooseFET" <kensmith(a)rahul.net> wrote: >On Mar 19, 4:26 am, jmfbah...(a)aol.com wrote: >> In article <etjolv$3g...(a)blue.rahul.net>, >> kensm...(a)green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote: >> >> >> >> >In article <1174221298.287074.230...(a)l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> >Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>On Mar 16, 2:55 pm, kensm...(a)green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote: >> >>> In article <1173976773.203668.217...(a)l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >>> Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> >Unhinged is wrong though - the problem is onlyselfreferential. >> >> >>> I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this. Read the following >> >>> statement carefully: >> >> >>> This statement is incorrect. >> >> >>> Now imagine BAH saying "the statement is incorrectso therefor it >> >>> must be correct so it must be incorrect ......." and so on in a higher and >> >>> higher voice and then exploding like always happens in bad scifi. This I >> >>> think you would agree makes the situation a problem with recursion. >> >> >>Yes. But it is an avoidable recursion. It only recurses if you are >> >>dumb enough to let it. >> >> >>The whole point here is that anyone with a half decent computer >> >>science education should know exactly how to construct the TAPE.DIR >> >>file so that the checksum/CRC is right first time (or at worst know >> >>where to look it up). >> >> >You are agreeing with my point. I think you now are starting to see what >> >has really happened with BAH's agrument. She has made an incorrect >> >statement and was left with the choice of admitting the error or ignoring >> >the path to the solution. She simply won't step outside the problem. >> >> I wasn't paid to step outside the problem. I was paid to solve the >> problem and I did in a manner that didn't cost money nor waste time. > >You haven't understood the teerm "step outside the problem". That term >applies to where your own thinking has gotten trapped within My thinking was determined by actual experiment. <snip> /BAH
From: MooseFET on 20 Mar 2007 09:53 On Mar 20, 2:52 am, "nonse...(a)unsettled.com" <nonse...(a)unsettled.com> wrote: > MooseFET wrote: [... in a kitchen ....] > >>>You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam > >>>filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low > >>>pressures: > > >>> P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4 > > >>True, but.... > > > Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero > > rarely happen. > > If we're into corrections then start with your misspelling > of Torr. I assumed you were willing to go lower than the > "normal" 0 Fahrenheit. Rather ordinary lab freezers go to > -86C while cooling using expansion of nitrogen gets much > lower. You're going to haw to redefine freezer to get > to the 50 Torr you proposed. The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate. It fails badly when you go down near zero C. I think you need to recheck your figures on the temperature needed. > >>To get a vacuum you have to have containment. > > No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be > > held in by the vacuume. > > Vacuum. > > The operative word is can. Through a longer thermal > cycle from ambient to some low temperature most stoppers > will leak. Not from 212 to 0C they don't seem to. > > > The amount of gun powder needed to prove that it will explode is very > > near zero. > > And then, in a "stoppered" container you're left with > the problem of introducing ignition. > > This has gone waaaaaayyyyy out of the domestic kitchen > league. Remember I added the creative use of some plumbing parts. This was for good reasons,
From: nonsense on 20 Mar 2007 10:53
MooseFET wrote: > On Mar 20, 2:52 am, "nonse...(a)unsettled.com" <nonse...(a)unsettled.com> > wrote: > >>MooseFET wrote: > > [... in a kitchen ....] > >>>>>You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam >>>>>filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low >>>>>pressures: >> >>>>> P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4 >> >>>>True, but.... >> >>>Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero >>>rarely happen. >> >>If we're into corrections then start with your misspelling >>of Torr. I assumed you were willing to go lower than the >>"normal" 0 Fahrenheit. Rather ordinary lab freezers go to >>-86C while cooling using expansion of nitrogen gets much >>lower. You're going to haw to redefine freezer to get >>to the 50 Torr you proposed. > > > The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate. It fails > badly when you go down near zero C. > > I think you need to recheck your figures on the temperature needed. It is your equation. Sounds to me like you got lost in all this. >>>>To get a vacuum you have to have containment. >>> >>>No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be >>>held in by the vacuume. >> >>Vacuum. >> >>The operative word is can. Through a longer thermal >>cycle from ambient to some low temperature most stoppers >>will leak. > Not from 212 to 0C they don't seem to. "don't seem to"? This was your suggestion, and now it seems to me you're saying it won't work anyway. >>>The amount of gun powder needed to prove that it will explode is very >>>near zero. >>And then, in a "stoppered" container you're left with >>the problem of introducing ignition. >>This has gone waaaaaayyyyy out of the domestic kitchen >>league. > Remember I added the creative use of some plumbing parts. This was > for good reasons, Thank you. We'll be in touch. NEXT! |