Management wars
in [Cobol]
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From: Oliver Wong on 7 Sep 2005 11:13 I didn't see the original message, and I'm too lazy to remove the double greater-than signs. > Pete Dashwood wrote: >> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them >> as a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is >> required, no understanding of the problems you have to grapple with >> every day, and just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a >> trained monkey could do their job? I've got two managers, a "business" manager who handles the finances of the company (including my paycheck), and a "technical" manager who assigns me tasks to complete. Most of my interaction with the financial manager has been social, so doesn't really have direct relevance to my job. As for my technical manager, he doesn't always know "what's going on" or "what is required" with my specific task, but when/if I tell him, he listens. I think he has a lot more people to worry about than just me so I'm not offended when he doesn't know what problems I'm grappling with. I don't think a trained monkey could do his job. >> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? Not a "typical" manager because frankly I don't really like dealing with people. I have some aspirations to become a technical lead though. My imagination of the job description is I'd be given a high level technical task, and I'd be in charge of breaking it down into lower level tasks and assigning them to other people or to myself. >> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) N/A, since I don't plan on "going into management"? >> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., >> even if you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to >> downstream processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at >> all)? If I think I have a better idea of how to implement something than the program spec says, or a better architecture or design or whatever, I let my (tech) manager know. Sometimes he agrees with the change, and other times he says "No, that's the way the client wants it, so we have to do it that way" in which case I just do what the spec says. >> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they >> don't like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual >> review? Would you modify your language depending on the level of >> management present? Why? Why not? Office politics hasn't been much of an issue where I work, so I guess I'm lucky that way. There was one incident near the beginning where I saw some code and commented that I thought it could really use an overhaul only to find out it was written by one of the senior coders here. Since then though, my input was typically heard early on in the design phase, so any disagreement about designs got resolved before any code gets written. >> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? No. >> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it >> comfortable or would you rather they didn't? I'm somewhat antisocial, so I'm always uncomfortable (shy?) when socializing with people I don't know well. That being said, I'm used to the idea that "normal" people socialize, so it doesn't bother me any more than random people socializing with me. >> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or >> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention >> from it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? If I can fix it myself without anyone noticing anything going wrong, I will. If it'll delay release of the product or otherwise screw things up for other people, I'll notify the manager. I think this company has a "We're in this together" mentality, so there isn't a big fear of blame being cast, just a question of what's the most efficient way to fix things again. - Oliver
From: jce on 7 Sep 2005 19:46 "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:11httq128jr1h29(a)news.supernews.com... > Pete Dashwood wrote: >> >> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them >> as a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is >> required, no understanding of the problems you have to grapple with >> every day, and just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a >> trained monkey could do their job? > > My management is kind, knowlegable, and a joy to be around. It anticipates > problems before they take place and has the best interests of the > employees always in the foreground. I firmly believe no better management > has ever existed in the history of the planet. I am the management. No further comment, I did that last time. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.cobol/tree/browse_frm/thread/2280a872f4095467/e61e2445fccd447d?rnum=21&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.lang.cobol%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F2280a872f4095467%2F99f90ac12e307db3%3F#doc_83b3ff54466ce9f9 JCE
From: Pete Dashwood on 7 Sep 2005 21:40 I am followin "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote in message news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net... > > > I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see > the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. > > Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the > framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a > manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused > of 'management' approaches in that they did not really understand the > problem they were responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The > Doc described a management experience that made me have a sharp intake of > breath. > > The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech > staff. > > Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent, > who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good > ways to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like > that (I can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them > remained in the same job at the same middle management level for over 20 > years, becoming more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually > working against the company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a > nicer guy...) > > It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always > the easiest guy to manage....:-) > Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my > comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to > deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a > time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-) > > I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if > anybody feels so inclined. > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do > their job? > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? > Why? Why not? > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or > would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from > it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? > > The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad > management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve > them...:-) > > The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your > management. > > Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, > grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the > responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-). > > Pete. > > >
From: Pete Dashwood on 7 Sep 2005 21:48 Oops! Sorry, the ole cursor on SEND while typing on a notebook... a keyboard bounce sends the message... (Note that I have not learned to avoid this behaviour by simply moving the cursor when the reply window opens, despite having made several incomplete posts to this newsgroup over the years. I thought about this and decided it isn't because I'm stupid; it's because I don't get a banana every time I remember to move the cursor... some of you may disagree with analysis...:-)) As I was saying... I am following this thread with great interest and some very useful information is emerging. Thanks to all who have contributed so far. I plan to give it another day or two, so that people who have not contributed yet won't have their posts influenced prematurely, and will then respond to everybody. If you have any anecdotes showing what you consider good or bad management, do please post them (some already have and they make entertaining as well as informative reading.) Pete. "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote in message news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net... > > > I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see > the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. > > Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the > framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a > manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused > of 'management' approaches in that they did not really understand the > problem they were responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The > Doc described a management experience that made me have a sharp intake of > breath. > > The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech > staff. > > Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent, > who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good > ways to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like > that (I can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them > remained in the same job at the same middle management level for over 20 > years, becoming more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually > working against the company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a > nicer guy...) > > It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always > the easiest guy to manage....:-) > Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my > comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to > deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a > time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-) > > I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if > anybody feels so inclined. > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do > their job? > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? > Why? Why not? > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or > would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from > it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? > > The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad > management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve > them...:-) > > The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your > management. > > Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, > grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the > responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-). > > Pete. > > >
From: jce on 7 Sep 2005 23:08
<docdwarf(a)panix.com> wrote in message news:dfmmmm$pfl$1(a)panix5.panix.com... > In article <3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net>, > Pete Dashwood <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote: >> >>I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see >>the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. > > Hostility manifested towards managers is surprising? What comes next, I > wonder... will you be shocked, *shocked* to find that gambling is going on > in here? > (your winnings, sir) In comp.lang.cobol? >>Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the >>framework >>of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a manager, >>which >>seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused of 'management' >>approaches in that they did not really understand the problem they were >>responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The Doc described a >>management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath. > > I/it did? Ummmm... I don't recall which tale I related but, for the most > part, the stories I tell of such things are based on experience; there's > no need for me to fabricate when Truth is wond'rous enow. Ah, if that were true. The number of times that people tell me "I *assure* you that my friend really told me....." when forwarding hoax chain letters is astounding. It seems that people like to think that they are at the centre of something at all times. Many of your stories seem to be absurd enough to truly be based on reality. > [snip] > >>I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if >>anybody feels so inclined. >> >>1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a >>bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no >>understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just >>an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do >>their >>job? > > My answer is E) Some of the Above. As with any job/profession I've found > that 10% of the practioners have what I call 'The Touch', an almost > instinctive feeling/understanding for what will Do The Job Right... and > the rest are just kinda fumbling along, praying they don't get caught out. It's simple economic drivers. Today you are more likely to see Computer Science graduates because they are interested in Computer Science - whereas a lot of people followed the money and ended up in a career that they're simply not suited to. I think, fortunately, we are getting to the end of the University of Phoenix MBA programs. That trend even reached foreign governments: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1098956,00.html >>2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? > > No. Managers have to do things for which I have little capability or > tolerance. 'Shoemaker, stick to your last'... I hump code and, at times, > can turn out a moderately well-crafted piece of it. Sounds like a strange form of binary procreation to me. >>3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) > > It could... were they to permit it. Let me relate another story: on one > site where I worked I once heard a rather... heated discussion going on in > one of the cubicles, along the lines of 'You must have changed the program > or something, the results are all messed up!' 'Let me check... no, the > load module hasn't been modified in four years.' 'I don't care what the > load module says, I ran the program just like always and the results are > all messed up... what did you do to screw up my results?' > > I turned to the employee sitting nearby and raised an eyebrow... his > response was 'Oh, this happens all the time. Accounting submits the job > ad-hoc after they TSO-edit a control card... sometimes they forget to > change the card and the results are a mixture of this month's data and > last month's. Then they come over here and scream until Richie (the > corner-office idiot) comes over and makes everyone sit down and look at > stuff; Accounting then modifies the card, submits the job and it all goes > away.' > > I then asked 'Why doesn't Richie go over to Accounting and gently tell > this woman's supervisor 'I don't *ever* want *any* of your people to even > *dream* of treating My Crew this way; if they have a problem then they go > to you and you come to *me*. I will not tolerate My Crew being abused in > this manner.'?... and the response was 'Oh, that's not the way it works > here, managers try to let subordinates resolve situations before they get > involved.' > 'Even if it means shouting matches like this on a regular basis?' 'Yep.' I don't see abuse, I see abject stupidity. I worked where development would make production changes to resolve a problem and then enters a change request and the change request was sent in a note to the change initiator, the installer, the approver and anyone else specified...nothing unusual there. But: We were also responsible for gaining approvals for the change from the system owner. After a number of changes where the operations team sent me three notes saying that I did not have the approvals and that the changes were in jeopardy of being rejected - I finally entered all change requests with "I will not get approvals. The fix is provided, they receive copy of this request. If you want approvals to install the change ask them yourself. I don't care if it installs or not, I didn't open the problem, I just fix them." I actually did get a note apologizing from two levels of management up. In a similar manner they added a box that said "Audit implications for install Y/N". I made the mistake of putting Y because I wasn't sure thinking that someone would look and correct it. I got in trouble for forcing many people to go into "audit procedures". After that I always put "N" and no one cared. > Now... my idea of a manager is one who says, first and foremost, 'Don't > mistreat My People. They are responsible to me and I have > responsibilities towards them.' In my experience this is rare. And, ain't that a damn shame. >>4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if >>you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream >>processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? > > This just happened to me recently. A corner-office idiot came to me, > directly, and asked for an 'all ya gotta do is...' solution. I bounced it > back to my Tech Lead who asked 'Who analysed this? Who spec'd it? How is > it going to effect the downstream system?' > > My response was 'The COI came to me and told me this, more than that I do > not know... I sweep floor now, yes?' Tech Lead then went to COI and began > to ask questions... and in a very short while Tech Lead was called into > *his* COI's office and told he was being 'obstructionist' and to implement > the other COI's request, *now*. > > I implemented the request, tested it... and noticed that in about 25% of > the cases it resulted in miscalculations. I reported this to Tech Lead; > his response was 'I'm not going to obstruct anything' and he called he > Prod team to move it in. > > I went back to the code and slipped in some mods outside of the spec to > cut the miscalc rate to 15%... when I mentioned this to Tech Lead he > smiled, ruefully, and said he understood why I had to do this... but he'd > have rathered I didn't. > > So... on the one hand he and I are 'built' a certain way, you don't ship > out code that you know is buggy. On the other hand pointing out that the > code is/may be buggy because of a lack of > analysis/co-ordination/specification is seen as being 'obstructionist'. It's the "broken window" philosophy and the reduction of "just good enough" to "is this passable?" coding philosophy >>5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't >>like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would >>you modify your language depending on the level of management present? >>Why? >>Why not? > > I am not usually invited to meetings. When I do attend them I do my best > to limit my comments to strictly technical matters. Saving all your best thoughts for clc, no doubt =) It's rather a shame, I'm sure your sharp wit would be appreciated. (That's real, no sarcasm) >>6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? > > No. Even if it is the result of the manager's own petard doing the > hoisting it is not pleasant, to me, to see difficulties. This statement _shocked_ me >>7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or >>would you rather they didn't? > > I avoid social occaissions. This statement _shocked_ me. Psyche. >>8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or >>would >>you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it >>until >>you could fix it, if you could fix it? > > When I screw up I do whatever is necessary to fix it. If all that is > needed is doing something on the sly then that is what I do, if the > situation requires me to parade about in my skivvies singing 'La > Marseillaise' then I'll at least try to remember to put on a clean pair. >>The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad >>management, >>there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) > > My situtation might not be applicable to others. I am a > consultant/contractor/hired gun; I've noticed that, as such, I tend to see > the insides of 'sick' shops more than anyplace else. On the other hand... > if the 'Dilbert' comic-strip shows that Art imitates Life then there might > be a bit more 'sickness' about than I have seen. Memories tend to blur the normal, functioning areas anyway. It's the moments of "whaaa?" that you remember. >>The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your >>management. >> >>Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, >>grunt, to actually make a difference. > > It is good to live in a world that has Hope in it, aye. > DD For a minute I thought you said Dope Nice note. I'm easily amused though. JCE |