Management wars
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From: Pete Dashwood on 6 Sep 2005 21:00 I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused of 'management' approaches in that they did not really understand the problem they were responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The Doc described a management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath. The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech staff. Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent, who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good ways to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like that (I can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them remained in the same job at the same middle management level for over 20 years, becoming more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually working against the company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy...) It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always the easiest guy to manage....:-) Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-) I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if anybody feels so inclined. 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their job? 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why? Why not? 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or would you rather they didn't? 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your management. Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-). Pete.
From: LX-i on 6 Sep 2005 21:46 Pete Dashwood wrote: > I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if > anybody feels so inclined. Why not - beats watching CNN's report on how filthy the water now in New Orleans is... :( > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their > job? I've seen both. The best managers I've encountered had a background in *doing* before ascending into management. A Captain (prior enlisted) was probably the most go-get-'em boss we had. Our current manager is a retired E-8 (one from the top). Both have a management style that suits me - they know I know what needs to be done, and for the most part, they leave me alone and let me do it. :) > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? I wouldn't mind it, although I think I'd still have trouble keeping my hands out of it. I just enjoy this stuff too much. Of course, if I still have stuff I'm doing on the side, maybe that would keep me satisfied. > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) Of course. :) As I get older, I find myself having less toleration for incompetence and laziness. (On a side note, I can't stand myself these days! ;> ) > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? I wouldn't do it. A spec should be *what* they want done, not *how* they want it done. If what they want is what will cause this disruption, I would make these concerns known, and I'd hope that we'd have enough of a relationship that they would take my concerns seriously. If they were hard-headed, I'd ensure we built in as many safety nets as possible to avoid the negative consequences, and provide recovery from them quickly. > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why? > Why not? I speak my mind. (This probably comes as a surprise, I know...) I may do it more politically, depending on the audience. > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? It depends on the type of manager. If they're reaping what they've sown, I don't shed too many tears. If they're being scapegoated, that upsets me. > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? They come around from time to time, and we have office socials occasionally. It doesn't bother me - I enjoy it. > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would > you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until > you could fix it, if you could fix it? That depends on the level of the blunder and how easily it can be fixed. I actually did a big "oops" (well, it wasn't really my *fault*, but I was the one who did it - so, it didn't matter if it didn't work the way the manual said it would). My big oops got compounded about 50 times, when test settings for compiles ended up in the mainstream compile logic. I explained what I had done to my boss, he went to the customer's boss, and I stayed late rolling the changes back out and rebuilding all the programs that had picked up the bad code. They weren't really upset with me over that, but now, when I suggest implementing something similar (now that I'm more familiar with the "gotcha"s), it's always met with pessimism. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~ ~ / \/ o ~ ~ ~ / /\ - | ~ daniel(a)thebelowdomain ~ ~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~ ~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~ ~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Arnold Trembley on 7 Sep 2005 04:36 Pete Dashwood wrote: > (snip) > I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if > anybody feels so inclined. > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their > job? A good manager can get more useful work out of a team than a bad manager. But a good team is easier to manage. I've had some terrible managers and some very good managers. It's much more pleasant and productive to work for a good manager. I've seen bad managers get their position because they wanted a promotion and a raise, or because no one else wanted the slot. A good manager can be a real asset to the team, without necessarily being able to do every team member's job. > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? I would never want to be a manager, because then I would have to work with budgets and project planning. It would mean not writing programs any more, and I would really miss that. I have functioned occasionally as a project leader, and found that it is hard work guiding other programmers. So anyone who can do it reasonably well deserves my respect. I'm much happier not being the boss. > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) It works both ways. Bad management makes for unproductive workers, and good workers will make their manager look better. You have to be as professional as possible, whether your manager is good or bad. So even if you have a bad manager, you still need to support him. > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? If a program spec has major problems, it's my duty to raise questions. I don't expect to win every battle. Sometimes the issues aren't black and white, but involve philosphical differences or technical unknowns. Over the years I have done several assignments that I had strong doubts about. Very few of them turned out as badly as I feared. Some turned out much better than I expected. > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why? > Why not? It should usually be possible to make one's views known without being rude about it. The manager might not be aware of technical issues that I know about. As the worker, I might not be aware of the business issues or policies that might be driving the work assignments. > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? No. If the manager is in trouble, it's bad for the team. If the manager is really bad and deserves to be fired, changing managers is still very disruptive to the work. > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? Yes. It's not good for the manager to be either too aloof or too buddy-buddy. Whether or not it's comfortable depends a lot on the social situation and the personalities of the manager and the worker. > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would > you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until > you could fix it, if you could fix it? The right thing to do is to take responsibility for your own actions. Attempting to cover up your mistakes only compounds the problems. I would tell my manager and seek support from him. I would still have to fix the problem anyway. > > The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management, > there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) In 25 years, I have worked for several managers who have been fired. In one case I took a job at a different company to escape. In another case, I transferred to a different team within the same company. Other times I have just tried to do my best and wait it out until a new manager was brought in. I've had several good managers as well. I don't think I deserved all those bad managers. It was just bad luck. Besides, even if I got to choose my manager, how will I know I made the right choice until afterwards? > > The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your > management. > > Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, > grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the > responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-). > > Pete. I would be interested in knowing how to improve my management. The one I have now is pretty good, but I might need to know those techiques between now and when I retire. -- http://arnold.trembley.home.att.net/
From: docdwarf on 7 Sep 2005 08:33 In article <3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net>, Pete Dashwood <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote: > >I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see >the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. Hostility manifested towards managers is surprising? What comes next, I wonder... will you be shocked, *shocked* to find that gambling is going on in here? (your winnings, sir) > >Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the framework >of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a manager, which >seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused of 'management' >approaches in that they did not really understand the problem they were >responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The Doc described a >management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath. I/it did? Ummmm... I don't recall which tale I related but, for the most part, the stories I tell of such things are based on experience; there's no need for me to fabricate when Truth is wond'rous enow. [snip] >I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if >anybody feels so inclined. > >1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a >bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no >understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just >an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their >job? My answer is E) Some of the Above. As with any job/profession I've found that 10% of the practioners have what I call 'The Touch', an almost instinctive feeling/understanding for what will Do The Job Right... and the rest are just kinda fumbling along, praying they don't get caught out. >2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? No. Managers have to do things for which I have little capability or tolerance. 'Shoemaker, stick to your last'... I hump code and, at times, can turn out a moderately well-crafted piece of it. >3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) It could... were they to permit it. Let me relate another story: on one site where I worked I once heard a rather... heated discussion going on in one of the cubicles, along the lines of 'You must have changed the program or something, the results are all messed up!' 'Let me check... no, the load module hasn't been modified in four years.' 'I don't care what the load module says, I ran the program just like always and the results are all messed up... what did you do to screw up my results?' I turned to the employee sitting nearby and raised an eyebrow... his response was 'Oh, this happens all the time. Accounting submits the job ad-hoc after they TSO-edit a control card... sometimes they forget to change the card and the results are a mixture of this month's data and last month's. Then they come over here and scream until Richie (the corner-office idiot) comes over and makes everyone sit down and look at stuff; Accounting then modifies the card, submits the job and it all goes away.' I then asked 'Why doesn't Richie go over to Accounting and gently tell this woman's supervisor 'I don't *ever* want *any* of your people to even *dream* of treating My Crew this way; if they have a problem then they go to you and you come to *me*. I will not tolerate My Crew being abused in this manner.'?... and the response was 'Oh, that's not the way it works here, managers try to let subordinates resolve situations before they get involved.' 'Even if it means shouting matches like this on a regular basis?' 'Yep.' Now... my idea of a manager is one who says, first and foremost, 'Don't mistreat My People. They are responsible to me and I have responsibilities towards them.' In my experience this is rare. >4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if >you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream >processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? This just happened to me recently. A corner-office idiot came to me, directly, and asked for an 'all ya gotta do is...' solution. I bounced it back to my Tech Lead who asked 'Who analysed this? Who spec'd it? How is it going to effect the downstream system?' My response was 'The COI came to me and told me this, more than that I do not know... I sweep floor now, yes?' Tech Lead then went to COI and began to ask questions... and in a very short while Tech Lead was called into *his* COI's office and told he was being 'obstructionist' and to implement the other COI's request, *now*. I implemented the request, tested it... and noticed that in about 25% of the cases it resulted in miscalculations. I reported this to Tech Lead; his response was 'I'm not going to obstruct anything' and he called he Prod team to move it in. I went back to the code and slipped in some mods outside of the spec to cut the miscalc rate to 15%... when I mentioned this to Tech Lead he smiled, ruefully, and said he understood why I had to do this... but he'd have rathered I didn't. So... on the one hand he and I are 'built' a certain way, you don't ship out code that you know is buggy. On the other hand pointing out that the code is/may be buggy because of a lack of analysis/co-ordination/specification is seen as being 'obstructionist'. >5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't >like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would >you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why? >Why not? I am not usually invited to meetings. When I do attend them I do my best to limit my comments to strictly technical matters. >6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? No. Even if it is the result of the manager's own petard doing the hoisting it is not pleasant, to me, to see difficulties. >7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or >would you rather they didn't? I avoid social occaissions. >8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would >you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until >you could fix it, if you could fix it? When I screw up I do whatever is necessary to fix it. If all that is needed is doing something on the sly then that is what I do, if the situation requires me to parade about in my skivvies singing 'La Marseillaise' then I'll at least try to remember to put on a clean pair. > >The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management, >there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) My situtation might not be applicable to others. I am a consultant/contractor/hired gun; I've noticed that, as such, I tend to see the insides of 'sick' shops more than anyplace else. On the other hand... if the 'Dilbert' comic-strip shows that Art imitates Life then there might be a bit more 'sickness' about than I have seen. > >The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your >management. > >Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, >grunt, to actually make a difference. It is good to live in a world that has Hope in it, aye. DD
From: HeyBub on 7 Sep 2005 10:20
Pete Dashwood wrote: > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them > as a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is > required, no understanding of the problems you have to grapple with > every day, and just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a > trained monkey could do their job? My management is kind, knowlegable, and a joy to be around. It anticipates problems before they take place and has the best interests of the employees always in the foreground. I firmly believe no better management has ever existed in the history of the planet. I am the management. > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? I did years ago. Now I are one. "If I'm going to work for a fool, it might as well be me." > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) My attitude IS management. > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., > even if you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to > downstream processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at > all)? Denial. > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they > don't like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual > review? Would you modify your language depending on the level of > management present? Why? Why not? I used to talk to myself. People looked at me funny. Now I write notes. > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? God no! > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it > comfortable or would you rather they didn't? We always do all things together. > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or > would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention > from it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? Again, denial is the best remedy. |