Management wars
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From: docdwarf on 8 Sep 2005 09:00 In article <uWNTe.9797$4i6.8477(a)tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, jce <defaultuser(a)hotmail.com> wrote: ><docdwarf(a)panix.com> wrote in message news:dfmmmm$pfl$1(a)panix5.panix.com... >> In article <3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net>, >> Pete Dashwood <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote: >>> >>>I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see >>>the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. >> >> Hostility manifested towards managers is surprising? What comes next, I >> wonder... will you be shocked, *shocked* to find that gambling is going on >> in here? >> (your winnings, sir) > > >In comp.lang.cobol? You betcha! [snip] >>>The Doc described a >>>management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath. >> >> I/it did? Ummmm... I don't recall which tale I related but, for the most >> part, the stories I tell of such things are based on experience; there's >> no need for me to fabricate when Truth is wond'rous enow. > >Ah, if that were true. The number of times that people tell me "I *assure* >you that my friend really told me....." when forwarding hoax chain letters >is astounding. It seems that people like to think that they are at the >centre of something at all times. Many of your stories seem to be absurd >enough to truly be based on reality. I'm a bit wary of referring to this 'reality' stuff, hence my labelling things as 'my experiences'. As for absurdity... how about this: three Kings follow a star to a barn where a woman has just given birth to a child whom the Kings believe to be a Great Teacher. They leave the child presents of kingly value... and then leave before finding out what this Great Teacher has to say and are never reported to have looked him up again. There's no need to invent surrealism... it's just kinda out there, floating around. > >> [snip] >> >>>I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if >>>anybody feels so inclined. >>> >>>1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a >>>bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no >>>understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just >>>an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do >>>their job? >> >> My answer is E) Some of the Above. As with any job/profession I've found >> that 10% of the practioners have what I call 'The Touch', an almost >> instinctive feeling/understanding for what will Do The Job Right... and >> the rest are just kinda fumbling along, praying they don't get caught out. > >It's simple economic drivers. Today you are more likely to see Computer >Science graduates because they are interested in Computer Science - whereas >a lot of people followed the money and ended up in a career that they're >simply not suited to. I think, fortunately, we are getting to the end of >the University of Phoenix MBA programs. I agree that this happened... a decade-and-a-half back *everyone* was A Programmer, now it is not so frequent. On the other hand... I've run across enough hack lawyers, engineers, doctors, customer service clerks... even hack taxi drivers!... to hold to the 90/10 rule. > >That trend even reached foreign governments: >http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1098956,00.html Ahhhh, Hartford University... the finest campus that ever fit into a post office box, I'm sure. > >>>2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? >> >> No. Managers have to do things for which I have little capability or >> tolerance. 'Shoemaker, stick to your last'... I hump code and, at times, >> can turn out a moderately well-crafted piece of it. > >Sounds like a strange form of binary procreation to me. According to http://www.m-w.com definition 4 is 'chiefly British : to put or carry on the back'; http://www.dictionary.com has '2 Slang b. To carry, especially on the back.' > >>>3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) >> >> It could... were they to permit it. [snip] >> I then asked 'Why doesn't Richie go over to Accounting and gently tell >> this woman's supervisor 'I don't *ever* want *any* of your people to even >> *dream* of treating My Crew this way; if they have a problem then they go >> to you and you come to *me*. I will not tolerate My Crew being abused in >> this manner.'?... and the response was 'Oh, that's not the way it works >> here, managers try to let subordinates resolve situations before they get >> involved.' >> 'Even if it means shouting matches like this on a regular basis?' 'Yep.' > > >I don't see abuse, I see abject stupidity. Well, 'abuse' is a verb (http://www.m-w.com, '4: to attack in words') and might be the result of abject stupidity. [snip] >I actually did get a note apologizing from two levels of management up. >In a similar manner they added a box that said "Audit implications for >install Y/N". I made the mistake of putting Y because I wasn't sure >thinking that someone would look and correct it. I got in trouble for >forcing many people to go into "audit procedures". After that I always put >"N" and no one cared. There, you see... your own experience. Watch out for those management apologies, though... some folks never forget that they had to make them. > >> Now... my idea of a manager is one who says, first and foremost, 'Don't >> mistreat My People. They are responsible to me and I have >> responsibilities towards them.' In my experience this is rare. > >And, ain't that a damn shame. Such is Life... on the other hand, Perot was a strong proponent of 'The troops eat first, then the officers'... but other rigidities of his organisation discouraged me from taking a job there. > >>>4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if >>>you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream >>>processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? [snip] >> So... on the one hand he and I are 'built' a certain way, you don't ship >> out code that you know is buggy. On the other hand pointing out that the >> code is/may be buggy because of a lack of >> analysis/co-ordination/specification is seen as being 'obstructionist'. > >It's the "broken window" philosophy and the reduction of "just good enough" >to "is this passable?" coding philosophy I'm not sure if it is that or if it is similar to the 'why are you making people actually Do Work?' sort of thing your Audit = Y example shows. > >>>5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't >>>like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would >>>you modify your language depending on the level of management present? >>>Why? >>>Why not? >> >> I am not usually invited to meetings. When I do attend them I do my best >> to limit my comments to strictly technical matters. > >Saving all your best thoughts for clc, no doubt =) It's rather a shame, I'm >sure your sharp wit would be appreciated. (That's real, no sarcasm) In my experience the 90% who are faking it and just getting by are too busy concentrating on what they are doing to be comfortable enough to joke about it. > >>>6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? >> >> No. Even if it is the result of the manager's own petard doing the >> hoisting it is not pleasant, to me, to see difficulties. > >This statement _shocked_ me As my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - said, 'Any damned fool can make other people uncomfortable; it takes a *special* fool to make them *more* comfortable.' Leaving aside such lofty sentiments as 'Thou shalt not rejoice at the downfall of thine enemies'... a manager in trouble tends to send excrement rolling downhill. > >>>7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or >>>would you rather they didn't? >> >> I avoid social occaissions. > >This statement _shocked_ me. Psyche. Well... besides the fact that I find myself spending a lot of time at social occaissions listening to people talk about small sums of money (which I find distasteful and tedious) I've noticed that the stuff that *I* find interesting to talk about tends to bore others to tears... see above about being a '*special* fool'. [snip] >>>The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your >>>management. >>> >>>Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form, >>>grunt, to actually make a difference. >> >> It is good to live in a world that has Hope in it, aye. > >For a minute I thought you said Dope No, Hope... as in that old saw, 'Humans spring eternally on Hope's breasts'. > >Nice note. I'm easily amused though. Seems readily apparent, aye... glad you enjoyed. DD
From: Don Leahy on 8 Sep 2005 19:24 "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote in message news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net... > <SNIP> > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do > their job? As a species Managers are wonderful. They give direction and comfort to those who need it the most. > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? It is something that I aspire to. With the right mentor it might be possible. > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) Definitely. It is important to try to see the big picture...when you look at things that way your manager is always right. > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? My manager has an open mind as well as an open door. He would listen to my concerns, and then share his wisdom with me. I would soon realize that I am mistaken and he is correct. > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? > Why? Why not? Managers are always open to honest feedback. I see no reason why they would be offended by such. > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? Not at all. I fret over it, and do whatever I can to help him overcome it. > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? I am not worthy. > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or > would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from > it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? > I would admit my guilt immediately and work whatever overtime was necessary to correct my error. In conclusion, my manager is a wise and powerful leader. And he monitors my email. ;-)
From: Pete Dashwood on 9 Sep 2005 05:02 ROFL! I have been waiting for someone to make exactly such a post :-) Maybe you could try again from an anonymous server? It isn't a trap; I'm genuinely interested in how people see their managers and what can be done about it. (By both sides...) Pete. Top Post - nothing new below. "Don Leahy" <leahydon(a)nospamplease.netscape.net> wrote in message news:oK3Ue.16486$I02.980491(a)news20.bellglobal.com... > > > "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)enternet.co.nz> wrote in message > news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1(a)individual.net... >> > <SNIP> >> >> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as >> a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no >> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and >> just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could >> do their job? > > As a species Managers are wonderful. They give direction and comfort to > those who need it the most. > >> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? > > It is something that I aspire to. With the right mentor it might be > possible. > >> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) > > Definitely. It is important to try to see the big picture...when you look > at things that way your manager is always right. > >> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even >> if you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream >> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? > > My manager has an open mind as well as an open door. He would listen to > my concerns, and then share his wisdom with me. I would soon realize that > I am mistaken and he is correct. > >> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they >> don't like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? >> Would you modify your language depending on the level of management >> present? Why? Why not? > > Managers are always open to honest feedback. I see no reason why they > would be offended by such. > >> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? > > Not at all. I fret over it, and do whatever I can to help him overcome > it. > >> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or >> would you rather they didn't? > > I am not worthy. > >> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or >> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from >> it until you could fix it, if you could fix it? >> > > I would admit my guilt immediately and work whatever overtime was > necessary to correct my error. > > In conclusion, my manager is a wise and powerful leader. And he monitors > my email. ;-) > >
From: Alistair on 9 Sep 2005 13:01 Pete Dashwood wrote: > I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see > the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. Ah, the old syndrome of They are incompetent and I am not. We all think that we could do our managers' job better ourselves. It is a different kettle of fish when you get to do the job yourself. > > > I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if > anybody feels so inclined. > > 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a > bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no > understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just > an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their > job? Wankers? wash your mouth out Pete. I'm not sure that the Cousins would understand the crudity of the term. Management is necessary and is sometimes evil or incompetent. I have worked for managers whom I could cheerfully throttle and others (strangely enough, ones who could not tell me how to do my job) who were the best I have known. > 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? Yes. It strikes me as more rewarding and fun than slaving over a hot coding sheet. I'm a control freak. > 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) Yes. It would make their lives more difficult if they actually had to do their jobs professionally. A negative attitude on my part would certainly make my managers' life problematic. So too would a drug induced high. > 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if > you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream > processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? No. If there is any doubt or concern then discuss freely with the originator of the spec. As an aside, a colleague was once asked to do a job of work for the client. He produced a suite of code which produced the desired result exactly as the user had requested. The user sent in a letter of complaint saying that although he had been given exactly what he had asked for, the developer should have known that this was not what he really needed! Part of the problem is that my colleague was a somewhat insular programmer who did not have the wider view of the business processes and the other part of the problem is that the organization in which we worked had a philosophy along the lines of: "If the user tells us to jump then our only question should be 'How high?'". It probably didn't help that the user probably didn't have a clue himself (in the UK we have a tv character called 'Tim, nice but dim'). > 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't > like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would > you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why? > Why not? I do speak my mind. Which brings up two incidents: 1. I once had what appeared to others to be a stand-up row with my director about the merits/demerits of a particular course of action. We eventually agreed to differ. When I realised how others had perceived our mild disagreement I went to apologise to the man. Before I could speak, he apologised to me. Unfortuantely, although the guy was a very reasonable man and operated an open door policy, the damage had been done and other people were wary about expressing their opinions in public thereafter. 2. In making a presentation to two clients about the resulting changes to their system one of the clients accused me of lying (I don't, I am a pathological teller of the truth as I know/recall it) about their responses to questions that I had raised. My view about such misunderstandings is that they should be settled at the time of arising because, if left until after the meeting, then one side will consider themselves "victorious" and thereafter be suffering from self-delusion. Don't let the canker fester. > 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? Depends upon the shite that he has previously lumped me in. I don't mind seeing a bad manager suffer, especially if it is from the consequences of their own actions/inactions. One manager (the director referred to above) had ignored the two warnings that I had given regarding the need to provide cover over a bank holiday period. So, when he came down slamming his fist on the desk demanding to know who was to provide the cover when we had all arranged to be out of town on that day, I did not feel any pity. My attitude changed when I heard that his wife's (fatal) cancer had probably led to his oversight. So there may be a reason as to why a manager is incompetent, other than sheer ineptitude. > 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or > would you rather they didn't? All managers have socialised with me and my team members. You get more from your team if you do socialise. One manager I worked for got more than he deserved from us (we kept digging him out of the holes he made for himself) because of his socialising with the team. As an aside, I worked for a "family spirit" company where every quarter the team was treated to a slap-up meal and drinks session. Morale was high. I was subsequently moved to a new team where, despite representations to management, quarterly beanos were not the done thing. Morale on the team plummeted. > 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would > you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until > you could fix it, if you could fix it? Many years ago I wrote an article for the house magazine regarding how to handle problems. It went along the lines of: 1. Has anybody noticed? No - then ignore it until they do. 2. Yes. Is it your fault? No -then ignore it until you get lumbered. You get the drift. Seriously, delegate upwards by notifying management (mea culpa, but what do you expect from a one-legged colour-blind grey-haired doddery old programmer?), get them to make the decision and them help them with their problem. > The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management, > there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) It is my desire to become a manager so what does someone have to do to deserve me as their boss? > > The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your > management. > In the UK, we do not normally train management/project leaders. Somehow, they are supposed to acquire the necessary skills by osmosis/diffusion. In my comments above, I said something about two managers for whom I have worked who were good. I asked one why he did not lose his temper in some of the meetings. His reply was that he had previously been a user and had concluded that banging your fist on the desk was counter-productive. The other manager was good from my perspective because he left me to get on with my job and supported me when I needed it. However, I did see another employee (a lead-swinger) who spent a year doing a job which was subsequently junked and replaced in two weeks by an inexperienced trainee. So, the employee's attitude does make a difference to whether a manager is good or bad.
From: jce on 10 Sep 2005 16:28
"Alistair" <alistair(a)ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:1126285312.030726.230350(a)g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Pete Dashwood wrote: >> I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to >> see >> the hostility manifested towards 'managers'. > Ah, the old syndrome of They are incompetent and I am not. We all think > that we could do our managers' job better ourselves. It is a different > kettle of fish when you get to do the job yourself. I don't believe that this is is representative of the truth. I often say things like that guy who replaced Peter Jennings sucks...or I read Chuck Pahluniaks novel and it was so overrated....it does not have any bearing on whether I could read news or write novels. >> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if >> anybody feels so inclined. >> >> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as >> a >> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no >> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and >> just >> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do >> their >> job? > > Wankers? wash your mouth out Pete. I'm not sure that the Cousins would > understand the crudity of the term. Wankers is not all that bad....in Essex it's a formal greeting as in "Oy, wangggggggka...you silly shirtlifter...ow ya doin'?" > Management is necessary and is sometimes evil or incompetent. I have > worked for managers whom I could cheerfully throttle and others > (strangely enough, ones who could not tell me how to do my job) who > were the best I have known. > >> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not? > > Yes. It strikes me as more rewarding and fun than slaving over a hot > coding sheet. I'm a control freak. Wow, I do my coding on a laptop in 73 degrees......I don't think managing incompetent "practitioners" is much fun either - queue "Employee wars" thread ;-) >> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?) > > Yes. It would make their lives more difficult if they actually had to > do their jobs professionally. A negative attitude on my part would > certainly make my managers' life problematic. So too would a drug > induced high. I agree and know this to be true. I am by nature negative in many ways and often it has more effect on my peers than any good deeds that management could do. I'm trying to be more positive because of it. It's hard to find a balance between being positive and accurately reflecting popular opinion - which is often (though not exclusively) visibly negative. >> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even >> if >> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream >> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)? > > No. If there is any doubt or concern then discuss freely with the > originator of the spec. As an aside, a colleague was once asked to do a > job of work for the client. He produced a suite of code which produced > the desired result exactly as the user had requested. The user sent in > a letter of complaint saying that although he had been given exactly > what he had asked for, the developer should have known that this was > not what he really needed! There _IS_ a responsibility to understand what the customer wants. Depending on the organization this may or may not lie with the developer. If my air conditioner breaks and my house is heating up I call an A/C guy and say "My house is hot something is wrong - correct it". I don't expect a bill for him filling my house up with ice....or replacing my A/C unit when all I need is to fix the freon leak even though each solution fulfilled my requirement. This is why we are seeing a growing popularity in the idea of "prototyping" (and I use the term loosely) requirements and less time on the up front long drawn up requirements process. A lack of skillful communication and requirements management and the "waterfall" method have long been a sore point for many businesses. >Part of the problem is that my colleague was > a somewhat insular programmer who did not have the wider view of the > business processes and the other part of the problem is that the > organization in which we worked had a philosophy along the lines of: > "If the user tells us to jump then our only question should be 'How > high?'". Yes. I always wonder why the only question is never "How quickly?" as in the informal definition. If your user was a long jump coach you would want an entirely different approach :) Reminds me of a good joke though: A manager had a flagpole lying on the ground. He propped it in its hole, got a ladder and a tape measure and tried to climb up to measure it, but the flagpole fell down. Twice again he propped it up and tried to climb it. Finally an employee said, "Why don't you measure it when it's on the ground?" and the manager responded, "Stupid Fellow! The client wants to know its height, not its width." > It probably didn't help that the user probably didn't have a > clue himself (in the UK we have a tv character called 'Tim, nice but > dim'). Yes, he was a thoroughly decent chap. >> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they >> don't >> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would >> you modify your language depending on the level of management present? >> Why? >> Why not? > > I do speak my mind. Which brings up two incidents: > > 1. I once had what appeared to others to be a stand-up row with my > director about the merits/demerits of a particular course of action. We > eventually agreed to differ. When I realised how others had perceived > our mild disagreement I went to apologise to the man. Before I could > speak, he apologised to me. Unfortuantely, although the guy was a very > reasonable man and operated an open door policy, the damage had been > done and other people were wary about expressing their opinions in > public thereafter. > > 2. In making a presentation to two clients about the resulting changes > to their system one of the clients accused me of lying (I don't, I am a > pathological teller of the truth as I know/recall it) about their > responses to questions that I had raised. My view about such > misunderstandings is that they should be settled at the time of arising > because, if left until after the meeting, then one side will consider > themselves "victorious" and thereafter be suffering from self-delusion. > Don't let the canker fester. > > >> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble? > > Depends upon the shite that he has previously lumped me in. I don't > mind seeing a bad manager suffer, especially if it is from the > consequences of their own actions/inactions. One manager (the director > referred to above) had ignored the two warnings that I had given > regarding the need to provide cover over a bank holiday period. So, > when he came down slamming his fist on the desk demanding to know who > was to provide the cover when we had all arranged to be out of town on > that day, I did not feel any pity. My attitude changed when I heard > that his wife's (fatal) cancer had probably led to his oversight. So > there may be a reason as to why a manager is incompetent, other than > sheer ineptitude. >> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or >> would you rather they didn't? > > All managers have socialised with me and my team members. You get more > from your team if you do socialise. One manager I worked for got more > than he deserved from us (we kept digging him out of the holes he made > for himself) because of his socialising with the team. As an aside, I > worked for a "family spirit" company where every quarter the team was > treated to a slap-up meal and drinks session. Morale was high. I was > subsequently moved to a new team where, despite representations to > management, quarterly beanos were not the done thing. Morale on the > team plummeted. I always find these types of things humourous. I'm not sure the tipping point for employee morale anymore. In reading a SAP Planning book, one of the sections indicates that for consultants, the dropping of $100 prizes or giving the afternoon off with the teams to socialize is of positive effect. My feeling is that if I'm paying you $150-200 /hr you should work for me and earn it. Most people get paid well enough to afford their own "slap up meal and drinks session"...I figure just not questioning them all leaving early on a Friday once in a while should be good enough. I'm always amazed at people making $100,000 a year that won't show up for a meeting too "close" to lunch unless someone throws in free $5 pizzas. Apparently I'd suck as a manager. >> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or >> would >> you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it >> until >> you could fix it, if you could fix it? > > Many years ago I wrote an article for the house magazine regarding how > to handle problems. It went along the lines of: > > 1. Has anybody noticed? No - then ignore it until they do. > 2. Yes. Is it your fault? No -then ignore it until you get lumbered. Same answer if you work on the diagnostics board for the Long Island Nuclear reactor? > You get the drift. Seriously, delegate upwards by notifying management > (mea culpa, but what do you expect from a one-legged colour-blind > grey-haired doddery old programmer?), get them to make the decision and > them help them with their problem. > >> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad >> management, >> there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-) > > It is my desire to become a manager so what does someone have to do to > deserve me as their boss? >> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your >> management. > In the UK, we do not normally train management/project leaders. > Somehow, they are supposed to acquire the necessary skills by > osmosis/diffusion. In the US this is true of every position that I've seen - though apparently acting is useful for a political career...as well as having the right dad. > In my comments above, I said something about two managers for whom I > have worked who were good. I asked one why he did not lose his temper > in some of the meetings. His reply was that he had previously been a > user and had concluded that banging your fist on the desk was > counter-productive. The other manager was good from my perspective > because he left me to get on with my job and supported me when I needed > it. However, I did see another employee (a lead-swinger) who spent a > year doing a job which was subsequently junked and replaced in two > weeks by an inexperienced trainee. So, the employee's attitude does > make a difference to whether a manager is good or bad. JCE |