Mass-Energy Equivalence [Math]

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From: Sue... on 9 Apr 2010 04:48

On Apr 9, 4:14 am, Link <marty.musa...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 10:26 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 10:15 pm, franklinhu <frankli...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 6, 5:58 am, Tony M <marc...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 2:40 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 5, 1:35 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 5, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 4, 12:53 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 3, 10:23 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Tony M wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > As per the mass-energy equivalence, can I assume the following is
> > > > > > > > > > valid?
>
> > > > > > > > > In relativity, which I assume is the context for your question, mass and energy
> > > > > > > > > are not "equivalent" in the manner you seem to think. They are in certain
> > > > > > > > > circumstances inter-convertible, but are most definitely not the same.
>
> > > > > > > > This is unbelievable. Self-styled physicists came up with (E = m
> > > > > > > > c^2). Now, they are walking away from it and speak with a forked
> > > > > > > > tongue. These clowns are very liberally interpreting the scripture
> > > > > > > > according to their religion. That's what you get for liberal-art
> > > > > > > > schools, I guess. <shrug>
>
> > > > > > > E=mc^2 in no way implies that mass and energy are equivalent, any more
> > > > > > > than F=ma implies that force and acceleration are equivalent.
>
> > > > > > > The equation relates the quantitative values of two distinct physical
> > > > > > > variables. That's what equations do.
>
> > > > > > > If you cannot read an equation, then perhaps you should read some
> > > > > > > sentences that precede and follow the equation where it is presented.
>
> > > > > > <<...an electron and a positron, each with a mass
> > > > > > of 0.511 MeV/c2, can annihilate to yield 1.022 MeV of energy.>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt
>
> > > > > > Sue...
>
> > > > > Yes, indeed. There is the numerical equality I was talking about. Note
> > > > > that a processes where the collision of two objects with mass produces
> > > > > a predictable amount of energy does not imply that mass and energy are
> > > > > equivalent. Perhaps you have the same difficulty that KW is having.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I think you're right PD, mass and energy are not the same thing. Maybe
> > > > "equivalence" is not the best word, "duality" is probably better. The
> > > > way I see it, mass and energy are two sides of the same coin, one
> > > > cannot convert mass to energy and vice-versa. For a certain amount of
> > > > energy in a system there will always be a corresponding amount of
> > > > mass, as per E=mc2.
>
> > > > Sue's example of electron-positron "annihilation" can be a bit
> > > > misleading, making one believe that mass gets converted to energy,
> > > > when that's not the case. The isolated system consisting of the
> > > > electron and positron has the same total energy and corresponding mass
> > > > before and after the "annihilation", except now instead of electron
> > > > and positron we have gamma photons (and maybe some other particles)..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I think you have hit the on the main point which is that mass is not
> > > "converted" into energy. You suggested that it gets converted into
> > > "some other particles". I would say that the electron and positron do
> > > combine to form a "poselectron" which is a superlightweight (1 MeV)
> > > particle which has yet to be discovered. It has been universally
> > > ignored since it forms the "aether" of space and forms the medium
> > > through which light travels. This is the actual higgs boson which
> > > gives everything mass as well. I have previously suggested ways to
> > > reveal the presence of the poselectron through experiments in my other
> > > posts.
>
> > > See my article:
>
> > >http://franklinhu.com/emc.html
>
> > > I don't understand why you guys totally ignore this most obvious of
> > > suggestions for the meaning of E=mc^2. Too simple for you, huh?
>
> > > fhuemc- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mass is infinitely dense energy C squared in a mathemtical point
> > particle. Particles are infinitely small point energies.
>
> > Mitch Raemsch- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What are the criteria required to meet a scientific definition (or
> characteristics qualifying) for "infinitely dense" and "infinitely
> small", please?

BURT doesn't know. Half baked slogans come to
him through a Ouji board like:

'Light is is the radiation of EM along a path;
gravito-inertia is the conservation of EM
along a path'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_gravity

My Ouji board is better however because it
points to clickable references. :-))

Sue...

>
> Thanks,
>
> meami.org
>

From: Y.Porat on 9 Apr 2010 06:05

On Apr 6, 6:50 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 11:47 am, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > mpc755 wrote:
> > > On Apr 6, 10:29 am, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >> Normally we apply the word "mass" to OBJECTS, not to collections of unbound
> > >> objects. In the initial state the electron and the positron EACH have a mass,
> > >> and the total mass is 1.022 MeV/c^2. In the final state the gammas each have
> > >> zero mass, and the total mass is 0. The total energies of the initial and final
> > >> states are the same. The total kinetic energy of the initial state is 0, but the
> > >> total kinetic energy of the final state is 1.022 MeV. These units have c=1, and
> > >> it is obvious that mass was indeed converted to kinetic energy.
>
> > > Stating the 'total mass is 0' is misleading. The mass still exists.
>
> > No. I am using these words with their standard meanings in modern physics. There
> > is no mass in that final state.
>
> > > [... attempt to invoke undefined concepts to "explain" this]
>
> > Tom Roberts
>
> MPC says mass is conserved because he says so.
> He also says the mass becomes invisible as mass and appears in some
> other supposed substance. This occurrence is evidence, for him, of the
> existence of the supposed substance.
> MPC is a little tetched in the head, perhaps.

------------------
the one that is deteched in head is --PD!! &CO.
he cant see that
E=mc^2
is mass in motion (kilogram meter ^2/second^2 )
if the professional parrot will say that this m
is 'relativistic mass'??
than
let the genius PD tell us

what is the****Gamma factor***
that makes that
m relativistic ???!!!

TIA
Y.Porat
------------------------
-----------------------

From: Sue... on 9 Apr 2010 06:18

On Apr 9, 1:15 am, franklinhu <frankli...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:58 am, Tony M <marc...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 5, 2:40 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 5, 1:35 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 4, 12:53 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 3, 10:23 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Tony M wrote:
> > > > > > > > As per the mass-energy equivalence, can I assume the following is
> > > > > > > > valid?
>
> > > > > > > In relativity, which I assume is the context for your question, mass and energy
> > > > > > > are not "equivalent" in the manner you seem to think. They are in certain
> > > > > > > circumstances inter-convertible, but are most definitely not the same.
>
> > > > > > This is unbelievable. Self-styled physicists came up with (E = m
> > > > > > c^2). Now, they are walking away from it and speak with a forked
> > > > > > tongue. These clowns are very liberally interpreting the scripture
> > > > > > according to their religion. That's what you get for liberal-art
> > > > > > schools, I guess. <shrug>
>
> > > > > E=mc^2 in no way implies that mass and energy are equivalent, any more
> > > > > than F=ma implies that force and acceleration are equivalent.
>
> > > > > The equation relates the quantitative values of two distinct physical
> > > > > variables. That's what equations do.
>
> > > > > If you cannot read an equation, then perhaps you should read some
> > > > > sentences that precede and follow the equation where it is presented.
>
> > > > <<...an electron and a positron, each with a mass
> > > > of 0.511 MeV/c2, can annihilate to yield 1.022 MeV of energy.>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt
>
> > > > Sue...
>
> > > Yes, indeed. There is the numerical equality I was talking about. Note
> > > that a processes where the collision of two objects with mass produces
> > > a predictable amount of energy does not imply that mass and energy are
> > > equivalent. Perhaps you have the same difficulty that KW is having.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I think you're right PD, mass and energy are not the same thing. Maybe
> > "equivalence" is not the best word, "duality" is probably better. The
> > way I see it, mass and energy are two sides of the same coin, one
> > cannot convert mass to energy and vice-versa. For a certain amount of
> > energy in a system there will always be a corresponding amount of
> > mass, as per E=mc2.
>
> > Sue's example of electron-positron "annihilation" can be a bit
> > misleading, making one believe that mass gets converted to energy,
> > when that's not the case. The isolated system consisting of the
> > electron and positron has the same total energy and corresponding mass
> > before and after the "annihilation", except now instead of electron
> > and positron we have gamma photons (and maybe some other particles).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I think you have hit the on the main point which is that mass is not
> "converted" into energy. You suggested that it gets converted into
> "some other particles". I would say that the electron and positron do
> combine to form a "poselectron" which is a superlightweight (1 MeV)
> particle which has yet to be discovered. It has been universally
> ignored since it forms the "aether" of space and forms the medium
> through which light travels. This is the actual higgs boson which
> gives everything mass as well. I have previously suggested ways to
> reveal the presence of the poselectron through experiments in my other
> posts.
>
> See my article:
>
> http://franklinhu.com/emc.html

===============

>
> I don't understand why you guys totally ignore this most obvious of
> suggestions for the meaning of E=mc^2. Too simple for you, huh?

Most of those "guys" have so deeply painted themselves
into a corner with time-travel pseudo-science that
they no longer recognise violations, second
nature to the rest of the scientific community.

<< Application of Noether's theorem allows physicists to
gain powerful insights into any general theory in physics,
by just analyzing the various transformations that would
make the form of the laws involved invariant. For example:

* the invariance of physical systems with respect
to spatial translation (in other words, that the laws
of physics do not vary with locations in space) gives
the law of conservation of linear momentum;
* invariance with respect to rotation gives the law
of conservation of angular momentum;
* invariance with respect to time translation gives
the well-known law of conservation of energy >>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem#Applications

<<Pseudoscientists invent their own vocabulary
in which many terms lack precise or unambiguous
definitions, and some have no definition at all.>>
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

Sue...

>
> fhuemc

From: mpc755 on 9 Apr 2010 07:52

On Apr 9, 1:15 am, franklinhu <frankli...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:58 am, Tony M <marc...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 5, 2:40 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 5, 1:35 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 4, 12:53 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 3, 10:23 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Tony M wrote:
> > > > > > > > As per the mass-energy equivalence, can I assume the following is
> > > > > > > > valid?
>
> > > > > > > In relativity, which I assume is the context for your question, mass and energy
> > > > > > > are not "equivalent" in the manner you seem to think. They are in certain
> > > > > > > circumstances inter-convertible, but are most definitely not the same.
>
> > > > > > This is unbelievable. Self-styled physicists came up with (E = m
> > > > > > c^2). Now, they are walking away from it and speak with a forked
> > > > > > tongue. These clowns are very liberally interpreting the scripture
> > > > > > according to their religion. That's what you get for liberal-art
> > > > > > schools, I guess. <shrug>
>
> > > > > E=mc^2 in no way implies that mass and energy are equivalent, any more
> > > > > than F=ma implies that force and acceleration are equivalent.
>
> > > > > The equation relates the quantitative values of two distinct physical
> > > > > variables. That's what equations do.
>
> > > > > If you cannot read an equation, then perhaps you should read some
> > > > > sentences that precede and follow the equation where it is presented.
>
> > > > <<...an electron and a positron, each with a mass
> > > > of 0.511 MeV/c2, can annihilate to yield 1.022 MeV of energy.>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt
>
> > > > Sue...
>
> > > Yes, indeed. There is the numerical equality I was talking about. Note
> > > that a processes where the collision of two objects with mass produces
> > > a predictable amount of energy does not imply that mass and energy are
> > > equivalent. Perhaps you have the same difficulty that KW is having.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I think you're right PD, mass and energy are not the same thing. Maybe
> > "equivalence" is not the best word, "duality" is probably better. The
> > way I see it, mass and energy are two sides of the same coin, one
> > cannot convert mass to energy and vice-versa. For a certain amount of
> > energy in a system there will always be a corresponding amount of
> > mass, as per E=mc2.
>
> > Sue's example of electron-positron "annihilation" can be a bit
> > misleading, making one believe that mass gets converted to energy,
> > when that's not the case. The isolated system consisting of the
> > electron and positron has the same total energy and corresponding mass
> > before and after the "annihilation", except now instead of electron
> > and positron we have gamma photons (and maybe some other particles).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I think you have hit the on the main point which is that mass is not
> "converted" into energy. You suggested that it gets converted into
> "some other particles". I would say that the electron and positron do
> combine to form a "poselectron" which is a superlightweight (1 MeV)
> particle which has yet to be discovered. It has been universally
> ignored since it forms the "aether" of space and forms the medium
> through which light travels. This is the actual higgs boson which
> gives everything mass as well. I have previously suggested ways to
> reveal the presence of the poselectron through experiments in my other
> posts.
>
> See my article:
>
> http://franklinhu.com/emc.html
>
> I don't understand why you guys totally ignore this most obvious of
> suggestions for the meaning of E=mc^2. Too simple for you, huh?
>
> fhuemc

Your theory will be better once you lose the 'poselectron'.

"[The ether] may not be thought of as consisting of particles which
allow themselves to be separately tracked through time." - Albert
Einstein

When an electron and positron 'annihilate' each other they return to
their base state of aether.

From: PD on 9 Apr 2010 09:30

On Apr 9, 12:22 am, franklinhu <frankli...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 6:14 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 8:58 am, Tony M <marc...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 5, 2:40 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 1:35 pm, "Sue..." <suzysewns...(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 5, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 4, 12:53 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 3, 10:23 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Tony M wrote:
> > > > > > > > > As per the mass-energy equivalence, can I assume the following is
> > > > > > > > > valid?
>
> > > > > > > > In relativity, which I assume is the context for your question, mass and energy
> > > > > > > > are not "equivalent" in the manner you seem to think. They are in certain
> > > > > > > > circumstances inter-convertible, but are most definitely not the same.
>
> > > > > > > This is unbelievable. Self-styled physicists came up with (E = m
> > > > > > > c^2). Now, they are walking away from it and speak with a forked
> > > > > > > tongue. These clowns are very liberally interpreting the scripture
> > > > > > > according to their religion. That's what you get for liberal-art
> > > > > > > schools, I guess. <shrug>
>
> > > > > > E=mc^2 in no way implies that mass and energy are equivalent, any more
> > > > > > than F=ma implies that force and acceleration are equivalent.
>
> > > > > > The equation relates the quantitative values of two distinct physical
> > > > > > variables. That's what equations do.
>
> > > > > > If you cannot read an equation, then perhaps you should read some
> > > > > > sentences that precede and follow the equation where it is presented.
>
> > > > > <<...an electron and a positron, each with a mass
> > > > > of 0.511 MeV/c2, can annihilate to yield 1.022 MeV of energy.>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt
>
> > > > > Sue...
>
> > > > Yes, indeed. There is the numerical equality I was talking about. Note
> > > > that a processes where the collision of two objects with mass produces
> > > > a predictable amount of energy does not imply that mass and energy are
> > > > equivalent. Perhaps you have the same difficulty that KW is having.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I think you're right PD, mass and energy are not the same thing. Maybe
> > > "equivalence" is not the best word, "duality" is probably better. The
> > > way I see it, mass and energy are two sides of the same coin, one
> > > cannot convert mass to energy and vice-versa. For a certain amount of
> > > energy in a system there will always be a corresponding amount of
> > > mass, as per E=mc2.
>
> > > Sue's example of electron-positron "annihilation" can be a bit
> > > misleading, making one believe that mass gets converted to energy,
> > > when that's not the case. The isolated system consisting of the
> > > electron and positron has the same total energy and corresponding mass
> > > before and after the "annihilation", except now instead of electron
> > > and positron we have gamma photons (and maybe some other particles).
>
> > You don't have photons 'till there is a causally
> > related absorption somewhere else and AFAIK no more
> > fundamental particles are known of.
>
> > Not meant to mislead. The story isn't complete
> > without reversibility and that, thus far seems
> > to occur only in mathematical models with
> > pseudo-particles.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_sea
>
> > Perhaps a rare occasion where PD and I
> > find a bit of agreement so take a picture
> > and pinch yourself to ensure you are awake.
>
> > Sue...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Reversability is trival. If you assume a poselectron forms when a
> positron and electron combine, then reversing it just means you hit
> the poselectron with enough energy to accelerate the particles to the
> speed of light = mc^2 and it will separate back into a positron and
> electron. What could be simpler than that? Who needs a Dirac Sea and
> pseudo particles? All you need are the particles we know and love
> (positrons/electrons) and the poselectron which awaits someone to
> discover which will instantly award them the Nobel prize. Too bad
> nobody is interested in finding it. I bet you could find it by
> analysing all the so called "garbage" accelerator collisions looking
> for signs of a hidden neutral particle coming out of positron/electron
> reactions.

Positronium (what you call poselectrons) has already been discovered
decades ago.

There are lots of neutral particles coming out of positron/electron
reactions. It will help if you could predict some of the properties of
poselectrons, such as spin, mass, baryon number, lepton number,
lifetime, decay products. This is what is normally done when a new
particle is predicted.

PD