POTS line quality help
in [Design]
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From: Robert Baer on 28 Apr 2010 19:46 Michael A. Terrell wrote: > Martin Brown wrote: >> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>> Martin Brown wrote: >>>> denali wrote: >>>>> On Apr 27, 12:08 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> denali wrote: >>>>>>> FYI, RE: JB's post.. leased line parameters are in no way applicable >>>>>>> to switched services. Forget about 3002 channels, etc. >>>>>>> Since you had better data service that has become degraded, something >>>>>>> is clearly wrong somewhere. >>>>>> Not wrong. Different. He should force a V34+ connection and see if that >>>>>> behaves any better - but he doesn't listen to advice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most likely one of his neighbours has moved to ADSL and the engineers >>>>>> have pinched his real copper circuit for that. Multiplexed local lines >>>>>> do not carry 56k signals at all well. The older analogue technology >>>>>> modems are a bit more robust in that environment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Martin Brown >>>>> Your 56k comment is correct, but the point here is that he can't even >>>>> to 28.8, which narrows the likely problem/solution. Nothing is gained >>>>> by considering your point. >>>>> >>>>> D >>>> The telco frees up a real copper circuit for a higher value customer, >>>> and puts the cheapskates with basic phone only onto shared multiplexed >>>> lines. That destroys 56k and derivatives functioning at anything like >>>> full speed. V34+ will work better if the problem is as I describe. >>> >>> Real copper? A lot of the US has gone to Fiber optics to within a >>> mile or two of your home. I haven't seen much copper in Florida for >>> close to 20 years, except for the 'last mile'. >> The guy clearly lives in the boonies and doesn't have two pennies to rub >> together. It is entirely reasonable to assume that their local phone >> system is antique and decrepit. The "fault" he describes is identical to >> the problems people on multiplexed voice only lines experienced when 56k >> technology was rolled out. That is why I referred him to that old FAQ. >> >> Most places in the UK are fibre up to the local exchange, but the last >> few miles is copper. Utilities are fighting tooth and nail in rural >> areas to avoid putting in any extra copper. That means as lines fail and >> more and more people get ADSL the remaining few on voice only lines are >> multiplexed in a black box somewhere between the exchange and their >> home. Answers.com has a description of the technology at about the right >> level for the OP to understand. >> >> http://www.answers.com/topic/pair-gain > > > Pair Gain isn't cheap in the US. Copper from the house to the CO > started disappearing over 25 years ago in the US. My first encounter was > when the phone company ripped out a leased pair between a fire station & > their siren at a paper mill a half mile away. That caused a mad > scramble to convert it (and others) to remote control by VHF radio. > That took over $1000 out of the volunteer fire department's budget. They should have filed a lawsuit, charged that loss including other general and punitive damages - for starters.
From: Michael A. Terrell on 28 Apr 2010 21:16 Robert Baer wrote: > > Michael A. Terrell wrote: > > Martin Brown wrote: > >> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>> Martin Brown wrote: > >>>> denali wrote: > >>>>> On Apr 27, 12:08 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> denali wrote: > >>>>>>> FYI, RE: JB's post.. leased line parameters are in no way applicable > >>>>>>> to switched services. Forget about 3002 channels, etc. > >>>>>>> Since you had better data service that has become degraded, something > >>>>>>> is clearly wrong somewhere. > >>>>>> Not wrong. Different. He should force a V34+ connection and see if that > >>>>>> behaves any better - but he doesn't listen to advice. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Most likely one of his neighbours has moved to ADSL and the engineers > >>>>>> have pinched his real copper circuit for that. Multiplexed local lines > >>>>>> do not carry 56k signals at all well. The older analogue technology > >>>>>> modems are a bit more robust in that environment. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Martin Brown > >>>>> Your 56k comment is correct, but the point here is that he can't even > >>>>> to 28.8, which narrows the likely problem/solution. Nothing is gained > >>>>> by considering your point. > >>>>> > >>>>> D > >>>> The telco frees up a real copper circuit for a higher value customer, > >>>> and puts the cheapskates with basic phone only onto shared multiplexed > >>>> lines. That destroys 56k and derivatives functioning at anything like > >>>> full speed. V34+ will work better if the problem is as I describe. > >>> > >>> Real copper? A lot of the US has gone to Fiber optics to within a > >>> mile or two of your home. I haven't seen much copper in Florida for > >>> close to 20 years, except for the 'last mile'. > >> The guy clearly lives in the boonies and doesn't have two pennies to rub > >> together. It is entirely reasonable to assume that their local phone > >> system is antique and decrepit. The "fault" he describes is identical to > >> the problems people on multiplexed voice only lines experienced when 56k > >> technology was rolled out. That is why I referred him to that old FAQ. > >> > >> Most places in the UK are fibre up to the local exchange, but the last > >> few miles is copper. Utilities are fighting tooth and nail in rural > >> areas to avoid putting in any extra copper. That means as lines fail and > >> more and more people get ADSL the remaining few on voice only lines are > >> multiplexed in a black box somewhere between the exchange and their > >> home. Answers.com has a description of the technology at about the right > >> level for the OP to understand. > >> > >> http://www.answers.com/topic/pair-gain > > > > > > Pair Gain isn't cheap in the US. Copper from the house to the CO > > started disappearing over 25 years ago in the US. My first encounter was > > when the phone company ripped out a leased pair between a fire station & > > their siren at a paper mill a half mile away. That caused a mad > > scramble to convert it (and others) to remote control by VHF radio. > > That took over $1000 out of the volunteer fire department's budget. > They should have filed a lawsuit, charged that loss including other > general and punitive damages - for starters. I suppose they should have sued when Ohio Bell replace the individual conductors with lead cable, too? There is no guarantee that the technology will never change. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
From: JosephKK on 29 Apr 2010 00:42 On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:45:04 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >Robert Baer wrote: >> JosephKK wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:39:06 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Martin Brown wrote: >>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>> Martin Brown wrote: >>>>>>> denali wrote: >>>>>>>> FYI, RE: JB's post.. leased line parameters are in no way applicable >>>>>>>> to switched services. Forget about 3002 channels, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since you had better data service that has become degraded, >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> is clearly wrong somewhere. >>>>>>> Not wrong. Different. He should force a V34+ connection and see if >>>>>>> that behaves any better - but he doesn't listen to advice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most likely one of his neighbours has moved to ADSL and the >>>>>>> engineers have pinched his real copper circuit for that. >>>>>>> Multiplexed local lines do not carry 56k signals at all well. The >>>>>>> older analogue technology modems are a bit more robust in that >>>>>>> environment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Martin Brown >>>>>> Well,now if i KNEW how to force V34+ i would try. >>>>> You should pay more attention to the postings in this thread and >>>>> also ask on comp.modems and/or us.telecom or whatever it is called. >>>>> They will know where you can dial into for a DIY line bandwidth >>>>> test. Assuming that end users are allowed to do such things in "the >>>>> land of the free". >>>>> >>>>> You might find a prehistoric early 56k UK FAQ helpful in trying to >>>>> configure your modem to work retro style. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.pierrot.demon.co.uk/faq/dtm.faq >>>>> >>>>> (it is well out of date and UK based but still has good hints) >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Martin Brown >>>> I have that UK reference and it is interesting and a bit informative. >>>> I have TerraTerm Pro but i cannot use it with my ISP to do any >>>> testing. >>>> If i ATDTetc in, that works and see the prompt for username but +++ >>>> does not escape to modem; if i am online like now, TerraTerm barfs. >>>> So _that_ type of testing is out unless there is another number or >>>> alternate to try. >>>> One of the suggested tests was with >>>> http://www.whichvoip.com/voip/speed_test/ppspeed.html and jitter was >>>> 610mSec, packet loss of 0%, MOS score (whatever that is) of 2.9, >>>> download speed 26.2K, upload speed of 21.5k and QOS at 92%. >>>> Measured loop current 35mA, different US Robotics modem acts the same. >>> >>> OK. It seems that TerraTerm Pro is part of the problem. XP comes with >>> a properly primitive terminal program though. You might try that. >> Do not use XP, but maybe a similar prog is available with Win98SE; >> will look for it. >> Thanks. > Found HyperTerm for Win98SE, it seemed to be installed but did not work. > So..uninstall, reboot, install and it works.. >.. sort-of. > ATDT972-231-0633 >(wait a bit) >+++ >AT%L%Q > ERROR >AT&V1 > ERROR >AT&L > ERROR >ATO >(am now back online with isp asking for username and password) > So, STILL cannot get info! > What next? OK i started here: Google: "at command set" Which finds many things with these being on the first page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayes_command_set http://nemesis.lonestar.org/reference/telecom/modems/at/plain-at.html http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdenetwork/kppp/appendix-hayes-commands.html Each one has links to further material. So you may want to add some more initialization commands before the dial command. Notably adjusting the S37 register, some N, V, and maybe W command; possibly starting with ATZ by itself. Of course you may wish to look at the results of some I commands as well. For controlling connection speed it should be done before the dial command. HTH
From: Martin Brown on 29 Apr 2010 05:03 Michael A. Terrell wrote: > Martin Brown wrote: >> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>> Martin Brown wrote: >>>> denali wrote: >>>>> On Apr 27, 12:08 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> denali wrote: >>>>>>> FYI, RE: JB's post.. leased line parameters are in no way applicable >>>>>>> to switched services. Forget about 3002 channels, etc. >>>>>>> Since you had better data service that has become degraded, something >>>>>>> is clearly wrong somewhere. >>>>>> Not wrong. Different. He should force a V34+ connection and see if that >>>>>> behaves any better - but he doesn't listen to advice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most likely one of his neighbours has moved to ADSL and the engineers >>>>>> have pinched his real copper circuit for that. Multiplexed local lines >>>>>> do not carry 56k signals at all well. The older analogue technology >>>>>> modems are a bit more robust in that environment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Martin Brown >>>>> Your 56k comment is correct, but the point here is that he can't even >>>>> to 28.8, which narrows the likely problem/solution. Nothing is gained >>>>> by considering your point. >>>>> >>>>> D >>>> The telco frees up a real copper circuit for a higher value customer, >>>> and puts the cheapskates with basic phone only onto shared multiplexed >>>> lines. That destroys 56k and derivatives functioning at anything like >>>> full speed. V34+ will work better if the problem is as I describe. >>> >>> Real copper? A lot of the US has gone to Fiber optics to within a >>> mile or two of your home. I haven't seen much copper in Florida for >>> close to 20 years, except for the 'last mile'. >> The guy clearly lives in the boonies and doesn't have two pennies to rub >> together. It is entirely reasonable to assume that their local phone >> system is antique and decrepit. The "fault" he describes is identical to >> the problems people on multiplexed voice only lines experienced when 56k >> technology was rolled out. That is why I referred him to that old FAQ. >> >> Most places in the UK are fibre up to the local exchange, but the last >> few miles is copper. Utilities are fighting tooth and nail in rural >> areas to avoid putting in any extra copper. That means as lines fail and >> more and more people get ADSL the remaining few on voice only lines are >> multiplexed in a black box somewhere between the exchange and their >> home. Answers.com has a description of the technology at about the right >> level for the OP to understand. >> >> http://www.answers.com/topic/pair-gain > > > Pair Gain isn't cheap in the US. Copper from the house to the CO Pair gain is a heck of a lot cheaper than running new cables to the exchange in sparsely populated rural areas (which the US has a lot of). > started disappearing over 25 years ago in the US. My first encounter was > when the phone company ripped out a leased pair between a fire station & > their siren at a paper mill a half mile away. That caused a mad If you had a leased line from the telco then they have to provide a functionally equivalent replacement service over a virtual circuit. What you say does not make sense. I don't see what the problem is. The end user never knows what the details of the local exchange technology is. Or are you saying that some cowboys from the fire service way back when piggybacked a siren connection into telco circuit trunking and telco snipped the cables when the upgraded to fibre optics? > scramble to convert it (and others) to remote control by VHF radio. > That took over $1000 out of the volunteer fire department's budget. Why could you not continue with telco leased line service? Regards, Martin Brown
From: Michael A. Terrell on 29 Apr 2010 16:47
Martin Brown wrote: > > Michael A. Terrell wrote: > > Martin Brown wrote: > >> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>> Martin Brown wrote: > >>>> denali wrote: > >>>>> On Apr 27, 12:08 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...(a)nezumi.demon.co.uk> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> denali wrote: > >>>>>>> FYI, RE: JB's post.. leased line parameters are in no way applicable > >>>>>>> to switched services. Forget about 3002 channels, etc. > >>>>>>> Since you had better data service that has become degraded, something > >>>>>>> is clearly wrong somewhere. > >>>>>> Not wrong. Different. He should force a V34+ connection and see if that > >>>>>> behaves any better - but he doesn't listen to advice. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Most likely one of his neighbours has moved to ADSL and the engineers > >>>>>> have pinched his real copper circuit for that. Multiplexed local lines > >>>>>> do not carry 56k signals at all well. The older analogue technology > >>>>>> modems are a bit more robust in that environment. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Martin Brown > >>>>> Your 56k comment is correct, but the point here is that he can't even > >>>>> to 28.8, which narrows the likely problem/solution. Nothing is gained > >>>>> by considering your point. > >>>>> > >>>>> D > >>>> The telco frees up a real copper circuit for a higher value customer, > >>>> and puts the cheapskates with basic phone only onto shared multiplexed > >>>> lines. That destroys 56k and derivatives functioning at anything like > >>>> full speed. V34+ will work better if the problem is as I describe. > >>> > >>> Real copper? A lot of the US has gone to Fiber optics to within a > >>> mile or two of your home. I haven't seen much copper in Florida for > >>> close to 20 years, except for the 'last mile'. > >> The guy clearly lives in the boonies and doesn't have two pennies to rub > >> together. It is entirely reasonable to assume that their local phone > >> system is antique and decrepit. The "fault" he describes is identical to > >> the problems people on multiplexed voice only lines experienced when 56k > >> technology was rolled out. That is why I referred him to that old FAQ. > >> > >> Most places in the UK are fibre up to the local exchange, but the last > >> few miles is copper. Utilities are fighting tooth and nail in rural > >> areas to avoid putting in any extra copper. That means as lines fail and > >> more and more people get ADSL the remaining few on voice only lines are > >> multiplexed in a black box somewhere between the exchange and their > >> home. Answers.com has a description of the technology at about the right > >> level for the OP to understand. > >> > >> http://www.answers.com/topic/pair-gain > > > > > > Pair Gain isn't cheap in the US. Copper from the house to the CO > > Pair gain is a heck of a lot cheaper than running new cables to the > exchange in sparsely populated rural areas (which the US has a lot of). > > > started disappearing over 25 years ago in the US. My first encounter was > > when the phone company ripped out a leased pair between a fire station & > > their siren at a paper mill a half mile away. That caused a mad > > If you had a leased line from the telco then they have to provide a > functionally equivalent replacement service over a virtual circuit. What > you say does not make sense. It's simple. They were using it as a simple low voltage, current limited remote switch which wasn't guaranteed by the contract, but the phone company knew it was there and let them get away with it for decades. Prior to that the dispatcher had to call the factory to have the siren activated by an employee. A leased line was still available, but was no longer a direct copper path between the two buildings. Technology moves on, and old equipment is retired as it happens. Since a lot of small departments had to move to radio control, the county set up a county wide control system so they could set off the siren directly. the could chose a single station, a small group, or in a disaster, every station in the county. > I don't see what the problem is. The end > user never knows what the details of the local exchange technology is. > > Or are you saying that some cowboys from the fire service way back when > piggybacked a siren connection into telco circuit trunking and telco > snipped the cables when the upgraded to fibre optics? Fiber to the premise in the '80s? Dream on! > > scramble to convert it (and others) to remote control by VHF radio. > > That took over $1000 out of the volunteer fire department's budget. > > Why could you not continue with telco leased line service? It was no longer compatible with a simple SPST wall mounted switch across the line. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |