Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: mpc755 on 8 Oct 2009 17:17 On Oct 8, 5:06 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 8 oct, 16:57, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:50 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 8 oct, 16:40, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:31 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 8 oct, 12:49, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > If the aether is stationary relative to the embankment and stationary > > > > > > relative to the train, this is what will occur in Einstein's train > > > > > > thought experiment: > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > > This is a very good piece of work of yours, that provides a very good > > > > > proof of Einstein's relativity of simultaneity. > > > > > You describe what happens in both the train and the embankment frames. > > > > > > a) Considering the events as observed by M' on the train, the light > > > > > fronts coming from points A' and B' arrive to the location of M' > > > > > simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by M, > > > > > the light front coming from point A' gets to the location of M well > > > > > BEFORE arriving to the location of M', while the light front coming > > > > > from point B' gets to the location of M well AFTER passing through the > > > > > location of M'. Very well done!!! > > > > > > b) Now, you also nicely show the situation as seen from the point of > > > > > view of M. Considering the events as observed by M on the embankment, > > > > > the light fronts coming from points A and B arrive to the location of > > > > > M simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by > > > > > M', the light front coming from point A gets to the location of M' > > > > > well AFTER arriving to the location of M, while the light front coming > > > > > from point B gets to the location of M' well BEFORE passing through > > > > > the location of M. > > > > > > Once again, you have proved beyond any doubt the relativity of > > > > > simultaneity according to Einstein gedanken. Congratultions. > > > > > > Miguel Rios > > > > > What I am displaying is not Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity. > > > > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity ALL of the light from the > > > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously and ALL of the light > > > > from the lightning strike A/A' reaches M' simultaneously, and ALL of > > > > the light from lightning strike at B/B' reaches M simultaneously, and > > > > ALL of the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches M' > > > > simultaneously. > > > > > This is NOT what I am showing. > > > > > But thanks for agreeing with Simultaneity of Relativity. > > > > No! you are as always ignorant of even what Einstein gedanken says, > > > so... > > > You are showing four (4) events or flashes instead of the two (2) > > > flashes that Einstein used. And, of course, the relativity of > > > simultaneity means that those two events while being simultaneous for > > > one of the observers (M for instance), will most definitely not be > > > simultaneous for the other observer M', and vice versa. > > > > This was already discussed some months ago, so you are clearly trying > > > to resurrect a dead cow here. > > > > Miguel Rios > > > You do not understand Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity. > > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity the lightning strike at A/A' > > is a single event and all of the light from A/A' will reach M > > simultaneously. > > > This is not what is occurring in Simultaneity of Relativity. In > > Simultaneity of Relativity, the light from the lightning strike at A' > > reaches M prior to the light from A reaching M > > No it is you who, clearly, does not understand any physics. > If you now are asserting that the strikes are simultaneous at points A > and A', then your video is totally bogus since you are clearly showing > two circles growing one from point A and the other from point A' and > hence they are not moving at the same speed. > > Miguel Rios Yes, the lightning strike at A/A' occurs simultaneously because it is a single lightning strike that just happens to hit at A and A' simultaneously. The light from the lightning strike at A is moving through the aether which is stationary relative to the embankment and the light from the lightning strike at A' is moving through the aether which is stationary relative to the train.
From: PD on 8 Oct 2009 17:41 On Oct 8, 4:15 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 8, 5:09 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 8, 3:55 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 8, 4:47 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 3:40 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:31 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 8 oct, 12:49, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > If the aether is stationary relative to the embankment and stationary > > > > > > > relative to the train, this is what will occur in Einstein's train > > > > > > > thought experiment: > > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > > > This is a very good piece of work of yours, that provides a very good > > > > > > proof of Einstein's relativity of simultaneity. > > > > > > You describe what happens in both the train and the embankment frames. > > > > > > > a) Considering the events as observed by M' on the train, the light > > > > > > fronts coming from points A' and B' arrive to the location of M' > > > > > > simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by M, > > > > > > the light front coming from point A' gets to the location of M well > > > > > > BEFORE arriving to the location of M', while the light front coming > > > > > > from point B' gets to the location of M well AFTER passing through the > > > > > > location of M'. Very well done!!! > > > > > > > b) Now, you also nicely show the situation as seen from the point of > > > > > > view of M. Considering the events as observed by M on the embankment, > > > > > > the light fronts coming from points A and B arrive to the location of > > > > > > M simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by > > > > > > M', the light front coming from point A gets to the location of M' > > > > > > well AFTER arriving to the location of M, while the light front coming > > > > > > from point B gets to the location of M' well BEFORE passing through > > > > > > the location of M. > > > > > > > Once again, you have proved beyond any doubt the relativity of > > > > > > simultaneity according to Einstein gedanken. Congratultions. > > > > > > > Miguel Rios > > > > > > What I am displaying is not Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity.. > > > > > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity ALL of the light from the > > > > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously and ALL of the light > > > > > from the lightning strike A/A' reaches M' simultaneously, and ALL of > > > > > the light from lightning strike at B/B' reaches M simultaneously, and > > > > > ALL of the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches M' > > > > > simultaneously. > > > > > No, that is NOT what Einstein's train gedanken says happens, at all.. > > > > Good heavens. It appears you don't know what SR says. > > > > > Right on your YouTube video page you'll see a much better video that > > > > DOES say what Einstein's train gedanken says. You'll see it's much > > > > different than what you just wrote above. > > > > I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The only point I am > > > trying to make to the other poster is the light from A' does not reach > > > M prior to the light from A reaching M in Einstein's train thought > > > experiment. In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity the lightning > > > strike at A/A' is a single event and ALL of the light from the > > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously. > > > No sir. The lighting strikes at A/A' are two separate events. You have > > a mistaken idea of what "event" means in relativity. An event, as > > defined for this purpose, is something that happens at a particular > > place and a particular time, not just at a particular time. And since > > A and A' happen at different places, they are separate events. > > > Secondly, the gedanken doesn't say that the light doesn't arrive at M > > simultaneously. It says that it doesn't arrive at M' simultaneously. > > It's apparent that you don't know what the train gedanken description > > is. Have you tried to read it? > > The light from A/A' reaches M simultaneously in Einstein's Train > Thought Experiment. Yes, that's what I JUST SAID. I gather you have a difficult time reading for comprehension. However the light from A/A' does not reach M' at the same time. Also, if this were viewed from M's view, the two events at A and A' would not be simultaneous. > If you do not understand this point in Einstein's > Train Thought Experiment when discussing Relativity of Simultaneity, > you are clueless. > > > > > > > > In Simultaneity of Relativity the light from A' reaches M prior to the > > > light from A reaching M. > > > > > > This is NOT what I am showing. > > > > > > But thanks for agreeing with Simultaneity of Relativity.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: mpc755 on 8 Oct 2009 17:45 On Oct 8, 5:41 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 8, 4:15 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 5:09 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Oct 8, 3:55 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:47 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Oct 8, 3:40 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:31 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 8 oct, 12:49, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > If the aether is stationary relative to the embankment and stationary > > > > > > > > relative to the train, this is what will occur in Einstein's train > > > > > > > > thought experiment: > > > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > > > > This is a very good piece of work of yours, that provides a very good > > > > > > > proof of Einstein's relativity of simultaneity. > > > > > > > You describe what happens in both the train and the embankment frames. > > > > > > > > a) Considering the events as observed by M' on the train, the light > > > > > > > fronts coming from points A' and B' arrive to the location of M' > > > > > > > simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by M, > > > > > > > the light front coming from point A' gets to the location of M well > > > > > > > BEFORE arriving to the location of M', while the light front coming > > > > > > > from point B' gets to the location of M well AFTER passing through the > > > > > > > location of M'. Very well done!!! > > > > > > > > b) Now, you also nicely show the situation as seen from the point of > > > > > > > view of M. Considering the events as observed by M on the embankment, > > > > > > > the light fronts coming from points A and B arrive to the location of > > > > > > > M simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by > > > > > > > M', the light front coming from point A gets to the location of M' > > > > > > > well AFTER arriving to the location of M, while the light front coming > > > > > > > from point B gets to the location of M' well BEFORE passing through > > > > > > > the location of M. > > > > > > > > Once again, you have proved beyond any doubt the relativity of > > > > > > > simultaneity according to Einstein gedanken. Congratultions. > > > > > > > > Miguel Rios > > > > > > > What I am displaying is not Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity. > > > > > > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity ALL of the light from the > > > > > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously and ALL of the light > > > > > > from the lightning strike A/A' reaches M' simultaneously, and ALL of > > > > > > the light from lightning strike at B/B' reaches M simultaneously, and > > > > > > ALL of the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches M' > > > > > > simultaneously. > > > > > > No, that is NOT what Einstein's train gedanken says happens, at all. > > > > > Good heavens. It appears you don't know what SR says. > > > > > > Right on your YouTube video page you'll see a much better video that > > > > > DOES say what Einstein's train gedanken says. You'll see it's much > > > > > different than what you just wrote above. > > > > > I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The only point I am > > > > trying to make to the other poster is the light from A' does not reach > > > > M prior to the light from A reaching M in Einstein's train thought > > > > experiment. In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity the lightning > > > > strike at A/A' is a single event and ALL of the light from the > > > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously. > > > > No sir. The lighting strikes at A/A' are two separate events. You have > > > a mistaken idea of what "event" means in relativity. An event, as > > > defined for this purpose, is something that happens at a particular > > > place and a particular time, not just at a particular time. And since > > > A and A' happen at different places, they are separate events. > > > > Secondly, the gedanken doesn't say that the light doesn't arrive at M > > > simultaneously. It says that it doesn't arrive at M' simultaneously. > > > It's apparent that you don't know what the train gedanken description > > > is. Have you tried to read it? > > > The light from A/A' reaches M simultaneously in Einstein's Train > > Thought Experiment. > > Yes, that's what I JUST SAID. I gather you have a difficult time > reading for comprehension. > > However the light from A/A' does not reach M' at the same time. > How can the light from A/A' reach M simultaneously and not reach M' simultaneously? > Also, if this were viewed from M's view, the two events at A and A' > would not be simultaneous. > > > If you do not understand this point in Einstein's > > Train Thought Experiment when discussing Relativity of Simultaneity, > > you are clueless. > > > > > In Simultaneity of Relativity the light from A' reaches M prior to the > > > > light from A reaching M. > > > > > > > This is NOT what I am showing. > > > > > > > But thanks for agreeing with Simultaneity of Relativity.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > >
From: PD on 8 Oct 2009 17:45 On Oct 8, 3:40 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 8, 4:31 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 8 oct, 12:49, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > If the aether is stationary relative to the embankment and stationary > > > relative to the train, this is what will occur in Einstein's train > > > thought experiment: > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > This is a very good piece of work of yours, that provides a very good > > proof of Einstein's relativity of simultaneity. > > You describe what happens in both the train and the embankment frames. > > > a) Considering the events as observed by M' on the train, the light > > fronts coming from points A' and B' arrive to the location of M' > > simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by M, > > the light front coming from point A' gets to the location of M well > > BEFORE arriving to the location of M', while the light front coming > > from point B' gets to the location of M well AFTER passing through the > > location of M'. Very well done!!! > > > b) Now, you also nicely show the situation as seen from the point of > > view of M. Considering the events as observed by M on the embankment, > > the light fronts coming from points A and B arrive to the location of > > M simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by > > M', the light front coming from point A gets to the location of M' > > well AFTER arriving to the location of M, while the light front coming > > from point B gets to the location of M' well BEFORE passing through > > the location of M. > > > Once again, you have proved beyond any doubt the relativity of > > simultaneity according to Einstein gedanken. Congratultions. > > > Miguel Rios > > What I am displaying is not Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity. > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity ALL of the light from the > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously and ALL of the light > from the lightning strike A/A' reaches M' simultaneously, and ALL of > the light from lightning strike at B/B' reaches M simultaneously, and > ALL of the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches M' > simultaneously. > > This is NOT what I am showing. > > But thanks for agreeing with Simultaneity of Relativity.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Sorry, I've fouled this up. What Einstein's gedanken says is that the light from A/A' and the light from B/B' arrive simultaneously at M and NOT simultaneously at M'. And if this were viewed from M', because the propagation toward M' is c from either A/A' or B/B', then it would be clear that events at A and B were not simultaneous. PD
From: mpc755 on 8 Oct 2009 17:55
On Oct 8, 5:45 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 8, 3:40 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 8, 4:31 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 8 oct, 12:49, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > If the aether is stationary relative to the embankment and stationary > > > > relative to the train, this is what will occur in Einstein's train > > > > thought experiment: > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > This is a very good piece of work of yours, that provides a very good > > > proof of Einstein's relativity of simultaneity. > > > You describe what happens in both the train and the embankment frames.. > > > > a) Considering the events as observed by M' on the train, the light > > > fronts coming from points A' and B' arrive to the location of M' > > > simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by M, > > > the light front coming from point A' gets to the location of M well > > > BEFORE arriving to the location of M', while the light front coming > > > from point B' gets to the location of M well AFTER passing through the > > > location of M'. Very well done!!! > > > > b) Now, you also nicely show the situation as seen from the point of > > > view of M. Considering the events as observed by M on the embankment, > > > the light fronts coming from points A and B arrive to the location of > > > M simultaneously, while clearly it is also seen that, as observed by > > > M', the light front coming from point A gets to the location of M' > > > well AFTER arriving to the location of M, while the light front coming > > > from point B gets to the location of M' well BEFORE passing through > > > the location of M. > > > > Once again, you have proved beyond any doubt the relativity of > > > simultaneity according to Einstein gedanken. Congratultions. > > > > Miguel Rios > > > What I am displaying is not Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity. > > > In Einstein's Relativity of Simultaneity ALL of the light from the > > lightning strike at A/A' reaches M simultaneously and ALL of the light > > from the lightning strike A/A' reaches M' simultaneously, and ALL of > > the light from lightning strike at B/B' reaches M simultaneously, and > > ALL of the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches M' > > simultaneously. > > > This is NOT what I am showing. > > > But thanks for agreeing with Simultaneity of Relativity.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Sorry, I've fouled this up. > > What Einstein's gedanken says is that the light from A/A' and the > light from B/B' arrive simultaneously at M and NOT simultaneously at > M'. > > And if this were viewed from M', because the propagation toward M' is > c from either A/A' or B/B', then it would be clear that events at A > and B were not simultaneous. > > PD OK, at least you now understand Relativity of Simultaneity. In Simultaneity of Relativity, both frames are equal. Consider the aether to be 'entrained' by the embankment in the embankment frame of reference and for the aether to be 'entrained' by the train in the train frame of reference. Where the light travels from is dependent on how the frame of reference is interacting with the aether. Since the aether is stationary in the embankment reference frame the light travels from A and B to M and since the aether is stationary in the train reference frame the light travels from A' and B' to M' simultaneously. The light from A and B reaches M and the light from A' and B' reaches M' simultaneously. |