Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: mpc755 on 7 Nov 2009 10:14 On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 6, 10:45 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 6, 9:31 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Nov 6, 8:36 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 5, 9:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > There is only one aether. The aether is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > When a pebble is dropped into the pool, the center of the pool is at A/ > > > > > A'. When the wave reaches the Observer at M, the Observer at M > > > > > correctly measures the distance the wave traveled as the distance M > > > > > was from A' when the wave was detected. > > > > > There is only one aether. If the aether is at rest relative to the > > > > embankment and a lightning strike occurs at A/A' the light wave > > > > propagates outward at 'c' from A. When an Observer, regardless of > > > > frame of reference, sees the light it has traveled from where A *is*. > > > > If Observers on the train or the embankment do not know their state of > > > > motion relative to the aether, they may approximate where the light > > > > originated from by measuring to marks left on the embankment or left > > > > on the train. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the > > > > lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the Observer on the > > > > train concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred prior to the > > > > lightning strike at A', then one or both of the Observers is > > > > incorrect. > > > > > Light does not travel at 'c' relative to frames of reference. Light > > > > travels at 'c' relative to the aether. When an Observer sees the > > > > light, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' to the Observer > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > The problem with Einstein's train thought experiment is in order for > > > the Observer on the train to measure to A' and for the Observer on the > > > embankment to measure to A and for both measurements to be accurate, > > > the aether must be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative > > > to the embankment which is physically impossible if both frames > > > intersect and occupy the same three dimensional space. > > > The aether is the preferred frame. > > > The idea of motion may be applied to the aether. > > This one is not mine: > > "Aether is the preferred relation to the frame considered" A boat is moving through the water at 50ft per minute. It is pulling a platform 2ft behind it containing a pebble several feet above a sheet of paper contained in a glass container. The pebble is dropped through the paper and into the water. The ripple the pebble makes in the water propagates outward from the point it was dropped into the water at 52ft per minute. One minute later, the wave the pebble made when it was dropped into the water reaches the boat. How far did the wave travel to the boat? 2ft or 52ft? How far does an Observer on the boat determine the wave the pebble created traveled to the boat and how much time does the observer on the boat determine the wave took to reach the boat? The Observer on the boat determines the wave took 1 minute and traveled 52ft to reach the boat and conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. An Observer sitting stationary relative to the water is 52ft from the pebble's entry point into the water. The Observer who is stationary relative to the water determines the pebble took 1 minute to reach where the Observer in the water is and traveled 52ft to where the Observer in the water is and traveled at 52ft per minute. Since the Observer in the boat frame of reference and the Observer in the water frame of reference both know how they are moving relative to the water, they both conclude the pebble was dropped into the water 1 minute before each reached the, both conclude the wave the pebble created in the water traveled 52ft to them, and both conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. If the Observer on the boat did not realize his frame of reference existed in moving water, the Observer would measure to the mark left in the sheet of paper when determining where the pebble was dropped into the water, would conclude the wave traveled 2ft to reach the boat. Since the Observer on the boat knows waves in water always travel at 52ft per minute in all frames of reference he concludes the pebble was dropped into the water just seconds ago. He is incorrect.
From: mpc755 on 7 Nov 2009 10:23 On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 6, 10:45 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 6, 9:31 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Nov 6, 8:36 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 5, 9:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > There is only one aether. The aether is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > When a pebble is dropped into the pool, the center of the pool is at A/ > > > > > A'. When the wave reaches the Observer at M, the Observer at M > > > > > correctly measures the distance the wave traveled as the distance M > > > > > was from A' when the wave was detected. > > > > > There is only one aether. If the aether is at rest relative to the > > > > embankment and a lightning strike occurs at A/A' the light wave > > > > propagates outward at 'c' from A. When an Observer, regardless of > > > > frame of reference, sees the light it has traveled from where A *is*. > > > > If Observers on the train or the embankment do not know their state of > > > > motion relative to the aether, they may approximate where the light > > > > originated from by measuring to marks left on the embankment or left > > > > on the train. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the > > > > lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the Observer on the > > > > train concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred prior to the > > > > lightning strike at A', then one or both of the Observers is > > > > incorrect. > > > > > Light does not travel at 'c' relative to frames of reference. Light > > > > travels at 'c' relative to the aether. When an Observer sees the > > > > light, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' to the Observer > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > The problem with Einstein's train thought experiment is in order for > > > the Observer on the train to measure to A' and for the Observer on the > > > embankment to measure to A and for both measurements to be accurate, > > > the aether must be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative > > > to the embankment which is physically impossible if both frames > > > intersect and occupy the same three dimensional space. > > > The aether is the preferred frame. > > > The idea of motion may be applied to the aether. > > This one is not mine: > > "Aether is the preferred relation to the frame considered" A boat is moving through the water at 50ft per minute. It is pulling a platform 2ft behind it containing a pebble several feet above a sheet of paper enclosed in a container. The pebble is dropped through the paper and into the water. The ripple the pebble makes in the water propagates outward from the point it was dropped into the water at 52ft per minute. One minute later, the wave the pebble made when it was dropped into the water reaches the boat. How far did the wave travel to the boat? 2ft or 52ft? How far does an Observer on the boat determine the wave the pebble created traveled to the boat and how much time does the Observer on the boat determine the wave took to reach the boat? The Observer on the boat determines the wave took 1 minute and traveled 52ft to reach the boat and concludes the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. An Observer sitting stationary relative to the water is 52ft from the pebble's entry point into the water. The Observer who is stationary relative to the water determines the pebble took 1 minute to reach where the Observer in the water is and traveled 52ft to where the Observer in the water is and traveled at 52ft per minute. Since the Observer in the boat frame of reference and the Observer in the water frame of reference both know how they are moving relative to the water, they both conclude the pebble was dropped into the water 1 minute before the wave reached each of them, both conclude the wave the pebble created in the water traveled 52ft to them, and both conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. If the Observer on the boat did not realize his frame of reference existed in moving water, the Observer would measure to the mark left in the sheet of paper when determining where the pebble was dropped into the water, and conclude the wave traveled 2ft to reach the boat. Since the Observer on the boat knows waves in water always travel at 52ft per minute in all frames of reference he concludes the pebble was dropped into the water just seconds ago. He is incorrect.
From: PD on 7 Nov 2009 11:56 On Nov 6, 7:27 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > [more of the same] Ken's loop: "SR says the following things, and that's why it's wrong." "But Ken, SR doesn't say those things." "That's because SR is wrong."
From: Inertial on 7 Nov 2009 17:08 "PD" <thedraperfamily(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:0e7ffedb-d96d-47d5-88bf-7a97ed02193b(a)k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... > On Nov 6, 7:27 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: >> [more of the same] > > Ken's loop: > "SR says the following things, and that's why it's wrong." > "But Ken, SR doesn't say those things." > "That's because SR is wrong." Nice summary. We also get this line of argument. "IRT says the following things, and that's why it's right." "But Ken, IRT doesn't say those things." "Idiot."
From: mpc755 on 7 Nov 2009 18:42
On Nov 7, 10:23 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 6, 10:45 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Nov 6, 9:31 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 6, 8:36 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Nov 5, 9:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > There is only one aether. The aether is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > > When a pebble is dropped into the pool, the center of the pool is at A/ > > > > > > A'. When the wave reaches the Observer at M, the Observer at M > > > > > > correctly measures the distance the wave traveled as the distance M > > > > > > was from A' when the wave was detected. > > > > > > There is only one aether. If the aether is at rest relative to the > > > > > embankment and a lightning strike occurs at A/A' the light wave > > > > > propagates outward at 'c' from A. When an Observer, regardless of > > > > > frame of reference, sees the light it has traveled from where A *is*. > > > > > If Observers on the train or the embankment do not know their state of > > > > > motion relative to the aether, they may approximate where the light > > > > > originated from by measuring to marks left on the embankment or left > > > > > on the train. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the > > > > > lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the Observer on the > > > > > train concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred prior to the > > > > > lightning strike at A', then one or both of the Observers is > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > > Light does not travel at 'c' relative to frames of reference. Light > > > > > travels at 'c' relative to the aether. When an Observer sees the > > > > > light, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' to the Observer > > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > > The problem with Einstein's train thought experiment is in order for > > > > the Observer on the train to measure to A' and for the Observer on the > > > > embankment to measure to A and for both measurements to be accurate, > > > > the aether must be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative > > > > to the embankment which is physically impossible if both frames > > > > intersect and occupy the same three dimensional space. > > > > The aether is the preferred frame. > > > > The idea of motion may be applied to the aether. > > > This one is not mine: > > > "Aether is the preferred relation to the frame considered" > > A boat is moving through the water at 50ft per minute. It is pulling a > platform 2ft behind it containing a pebble several feet above a sheet > of paper enclosed in a container. The pebble is dropped through > the paper and into the water. The ripple the pebble makes in the water > propagates outward from the point it was dropped into the water at > 52ft per minute. One minute later, the wave the pebble made when it > was dropped into the water reaches the boat. How far did the wave > travel to the boat? 2ft or 52ft? How far does an Observer on the boat > determine the wave the pebble created traveled to the boat and how > much time does the Observer on the boat determine the wave took to > reach the boat? The Observer on the boat determines the wave took 1 > minute and traveled 52ft to reach the boat and concludes the wave > traveled at 52ft per minute. An Observer sitting stationary relative > to the water is 52ft from the pebble's entry point into the water. The > Observer who is stationary relative to the water determines the pebble > took 1 minute to reach where the Observer in the water is and traveled > 52ft to where the Observer in the water is and traveled at 52ft per > minute. > > Since the Observer in the boat frame of reference and the Observer in > the water frame of reference both know how they are moving relative to > the water, they both conclude the pebble was dropped into the water 1 > minute before the wave reached each of them, both conclude the wave > the pebble created in the water traveled 52ft to them, and both > conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. > > If the Observer on the boat did not realize his frame of reference > existed in moving water, the Observer would measure to the mark left > in the sheet of paper when determining where the pebble was dropped > into the water, and conclude the wave traveled 2ft to reach the > boat. Since the Observer on the boat knows waves in water always > travel at 52ft per minute in all frames of reference he concludes the > pebble was dropped into the water just seconds ago. He is incorrect. If the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference share the same three dimensional space and the idea of motion may not be applied to the aether, then everything is at rest relative to the train frame of reference and everything is at rest relative to the embankment frame of reference, relative to this shared space. For the three dimensional space the two frames share to be at rest relative to both frames is physically impossible. |