Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: mpc755 on 9 Nov 2009 08:48 On Nov 8, 11:18 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 8, 9:36 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:01 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Nov 7, 6:42 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 7, 10:23 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 10:45 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 9:31 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 8:36 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 5, 9:07 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > There is only one aether. The aether is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > > > > > > When a pebble is dropped into the pool, the center of the pool is at A/ > > > > > > > > > > A'. When the wave reaches the Observer at M, the Observer at M > > > > > > > > > > correctly measures the distance the wave traveled as the distance M > > > > > > > > > > was from A' when the wave was detected. > > > > > > > > > > There is only one aether. If the aether is at rest relative to the > > > > > > > > > embankment and a lightning strike occurs at A/A' the light wave > > > > > > > > > propagates outward at 'c' from A. When an Observer, regardless of > > > > > > > > > frame of reference, sees the light it has traveled from where A *is*. > > > > > > > > > If Observers on the train or the embankment do not know their state of > > > > > > > > > motion relative to the aether, they may approximate where the light > > > > > > > > > originated from by measuring to marks left on the embankment or left > > > > > > > > > on the train. If the Observer on the embankment concludes the > > > > > > > > > lightning strikes occurred simultaneously and the Observer on the > > > > > > > > > train concludes the lightning strike at B' occurred prior to the > > > > > > > > > lightning strike at A', then one or both of the Observers is > > > > > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > Light does not travel at 'c' relative to frames of reference. Light > > > > > > > > > travels at 'c' relative to the aether. When an Observer sees the > > > > > > > > > light, the light wave will have traveled at 'c' to the Observer > > > > > > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > The problem with Einstein's train thought experiment is in order for > > > > > > > > the Observer on the train to measure to A' and for the Observer on the > > > > > > > > embankment to measure to A and for both measurements to be accurate, > > > > > > > > the aether must be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative > > > > > > > > to the embankment which is physically impossible if both frames > > > > > > > > intersect and occupy the same three dimensional space. > > > > > > > > The aether is the preferred frame. > > > > > > > > The idea of motion may be applied to the aether. > > > > > > > This one is not mine: > > > > > > > "Aether is the preferred relation to the frame considered" > > > > > > A boat is moving through the water at 50ft per minute. It is pulling a > > > > > platform 2ft behind it containing a pebble several feet above a sheet > > > > > of paper enclosed in a container. The pebble is dropped through > > > > > the paper and into the water. The ripple the pebble makes in the water > > > > > propagates outward from the point it was dropped into the water at > > > > > 52ft per minute. One minute later, the wave the pebble made when it > > > > > was dropped into the water reaches the boat. How far did the wave > > > > > travel to the boat? 2ft or 52ft? How far does an Observer on the boat > > > > > determine the wave the pebble created traveled to the boat and how > > > > > much time does the Observer on the boat determine the wave took to > > > > > reach the boat? The Observer on the boat determines the wave took 1 > > > > > minute and traveled 52ft to reach the boat and concludes the wave > > > > > traveled at 52ft per minute. An Observer sitting stationary relative > > > > > to the water is 52ft from the pebble's entry point into the water.. The > > > > > Observer who is stationary relative to the water determines the pebble > > > > > took 1 minute to reach where the Observer in the water is and traveled > > > > > 52ft to where the Observer in the water is and traveled at 52ft per > > > > > minute. > > > > > > Since the Observer in the boat frame of reference and the Observer in > > > > > the water frame of reference both know how they are moving relative to > > > > > the water, they both conclude the pebble was dropped into the water 1 > > > > > minute before the wave reached each of them, both conclude the wave > > > > > the pebble created in the water traveled 52ft to them, and both > > > > > conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. > > > > > > If the Observer on the boat did not realize his frame of reference > > > > > existed in moving water, the Observer would measure to the mark left > > > > > in the sheet of paper when determining where the pebble was dropped > > > > > into the water, and conclude the wave traveled 2ft to reach the > > > > > boat. Since the Observer on the boat knows waves in water always > > > > > travel at 52ft per minute in all frames of reference he concludes the > > > > > pebble was dropped into the water just seconds ago. This is incorrect. > > > > > If the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference > > > > share the same three dimensional space and the idea of motion may not > > > > be applied to the aether, then everything is at rest relative to the > > > > train frame of reference and everything is at rest relative to the > > > > embankment frame of reference, relative to this shared space. For the > > > > three dimensional space the two frames share to be at rest relative to > > > > both frames is physically impossible. > > > > Three Observers get together. Two on the embankment and one on the > > > train. One Observer is at A and on Observer is at M on the embankment.. > > > The Observer on the train is located at a point between M' and B' on > > > the train. I will call this location C'. The experiment is setup so > > > the light from A will reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C' > > > when they are located as close to each other as possible in three > > > dimensional space. The Observers use equal and opposite energies to > > > get to their appropriate locations. > > > > The embankment begins to move in the direction towards the Observer at > > > C' and the train begins to move in the direction towards A. The > > > Observer at A sends out a flash of light from behind a cross-cut of a > > > steel I bar. The light reaches the Observer at M. At this instant the > > > light reaches the Observer at C'. The Observer at M and the Observer > > > at C' capture an image of the I bar. When the Observers get back > > > together they compare images of the pictures they took of the I bar. > > > Both images are identical in terms of the size of the I bar in the > > > image. Meaning, the light traveled from the same location in three > > > dimensional space, relative to the aether, to both the Observer at M > > > and the Observer at C'. The light took the same amount of time to > > > reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C'. > > > The Observer at A and the Observer at M are 0.1 light year apart from > > each other. The embankment and train are moving at 0.9 'c' relative to > > one another. At the time of the flash of light from behind the I bar A > > is 1 light year from C'. One light year later M and C' are as close > > together in three dimensional space as possible. The Observer at M and > > the Observer at C' are holding mirrors and reflect the I bar images > > back to the Observer at A. Are the I bar images the same size as seen > > by the Observer at A? In AD they are because the light wave has > > traveled at 'c' from the point in three dimensional space where the > > flash was emitted by the Observer at A, relative to the aether. The > > light wave was reflected by the Observer at M and the Observer at C' > > from the same point in three dimensional space and traveled back to > > the Observer at A at 'c' relative to the aether. In AD, the light wave > > travels the same distance from A to M and back to A as it does from A > > to C' and back to A. In AD, it is a light wave traveling relative to > > the aether. > > When the light wave is reflected by M and C' and travels back to A, > there is an Observer at D' on the train who is located right next to A > when the light wave reaches A. In SR, the image of the I bar that > travels from A to C' back to D' and the image of the I bar that > travels from A to M back to D' is smaller than the image of the I bar > that travels from A to C' back to A and the image of the I bar that > travels from A to M back to A. This is all because in SR, you get to > choose the size of the I bar depending upon where the light wave winds > up. Since D' is in the train frame of reference the distance from A to > C' back to D' and the distance from A to M back to D' is over 1 light > year. Since A is in the embankment frame of reference the distance > from A to C' back to A and the distance from A to M back to A is 0.2 > or less light years. > > In AD, the images are identical because the light wave travels at 'c' > relative to the aether. Lightning strike at B/B' as in Einstein's train thought experiment. The Observer at M is 0.1 light years from B. Observer C' on the train is 1 light year from B'. The train and embankment are moving at 0.9 light years relative to one another. The light from the lightning strike at B/B' reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C' when the observers are as close as possible in three dimensional space. The lightning strike occurs behind the cross-cut of a steal I bar. In SR, since the light travels 0.1 light years from B to M and the light travels 1.0 light years from B' to C', the image of the I bar as seen by the Observer at M should be larger than the image of the I bar as seen by the Observer at C'. In AD, since the light wave traveled at 'c' relative to the aether and traveled the same distance to both observers, the images of the I bar as seen by the observers should be identical.
From: mpc755 on 9 Nov 2009 08:54 On Nov 8, 11:18 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 8, 9:36 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Nov 8, 9:01 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Nov 7, 6:42 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 7, 10:23 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Nov 6, 1:02 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > This one is not mine: > > > > > > > "Aether is the preferred relation to the frame considered" > > > > > > A boat is moving through the water at 50ft per minute. It is pulling a > > > > > platform 2ft behind it containing a pebble several feet above a sheet > > > > > of paper enclosed in a container. The pebble is dropped through > > > > > the paper and into the water. The ripple the pebble makes in the water > > > > > propagates outward from the point it was dropped into the water at > > > > > 52ft per minute. One minute later, the wave the pebble made when it > > > > > was dropped into the water reaches the boat. How far did the wave > > > > > travel to the boat? 2ft or 52ft? How far does an Observer on the boat > > > > > determine the wave the pebble created traveled to the boat and how > > > > > much time does the Observer on the boat determine the wave took to > > > > > reach the boat? The Observer on the boat determines the wave took 1 > > > > > minute and traveled 52ft to reach the boat and concludes the wave > > > > > traveled at 52ft per minute. An Observer sitting stationary relative > > > > > to the water is 52ft from the pebble's entry point into the water.. The > > > > > Observer who is stationary relative to the water determines the pebble > > > > > took 1 minute to reach where the Observer in the water is and traveled > > > > > 52ft to where the Observer in the water is and traveled at 52ft per > > > > > minute. > > > > > > Since the Observer in the boat frame of reference and the Observer in > > > > > the water frame of reference both know how they are moving relative to > > > > > the water, they both conclude the pebble was dropped into the water 1 > > > > > minute before the wave reached each of them, both conclude the wave > > > > > the pebble created in the water traveled 52ft to them, and both > > > > > conclude the wave traveled at 52ft per minute. > > > > > > If the Observer on the boat did not realize his frame of reference > > > > > existed in moving water, the Observer would measure to the mark left > > > > > in the sheet of paper when determining where the pebble was dropped > > > > > into the water, and conclude the wave traveled 2ft to reach the > > > > > boat. Since the Observer on the boat knows waves in water always > > > > > travel at 52ft per minute in all frames of reference he concludes the > > > > > pebble was dropped into the water just seconds ago. This is incorrect. > > > > > If the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference > > > > share the same three dimensional space and the idea of motion may not > > > > be applied to the aether, then everything is at rest relative to the > > > > train frame of reference and everything is at rest relative to the > > > > embankment frame of reference, relative to this shared space. For the > > > > three dimensional space the two frames share to be at rest relative to > > > > both frames is physically impossible. > > > > Three Observers get together. Two on the embankment and one on the > > > train. One Observer is at A and on Observer is at M on the embankment.. > > > The Observer on the train is located at a point between M' and B' on > > > the train. I will call this location C'. The experiment is setup so > > > the light from A will reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C' > > > when they are located as close to each other as possible in three > > > dimensional space. The Observers use equal and opposite energies to > > > get to their appropriate locations. > > > > The embankment begins to move in the direction towards the Observer at > > > C' and the train begins to move in the direction towards A. The > > > Observer at A sends out a flash of light from behind a cross-cut of a > > > steel I bar. The light reaches the Observer at M. At this instant the > > > light reaches the Observer at C'. The Observer at M and the Observer > > > at C' capture an image of the I bar. When the Observers get back > > > together they compare images of the pictures they took of the I bar. > > > Both images are identical in terms of the size of the I bar in the > > > image. Meaning, the light traveled from the same location in three > > > dimensional space, relative to the aether, to both the Observer at M > > > and the Observer at C'. The light took the same amount of time to > > > reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C'. > > > The Observer at A and the Observer at M are 0.1 light year apart from > > each other. The embankment and train are moving at 0.9 'c' relative to > > one another. At the time of the flash of light from behind the I bar A > > is 1 light year from C'. One light year later M and C' are as close > > together in three dimensional space as possible. The Observer at M and > > the Observer at C' are holding mirrors and reflect the I bar images > > back to the Observer at A. Are the I bar images the same size as seen > > by the Observer at A? In AD they are because the light wave has > > traveled at 'c' from the point in three dimensional space where the > > flash was emitted by the Observer at A, relative to the aether. The > > light wave was reflected by the Observer at M and the Observer at C' > > from the same point in three dimensional space and traveled back to > > the Observer at A at 'c' relative to the aether. In AD, the light wave > > travels the same distance from A to M and back to A as it does from A > > to C' and back to A. In AD, it is a light wave traveling relative to > > the aether. > > When the light wave is reflected by M and C' and travels back to A, > there is an Observer at D' on the train who is located right next to A > when the light wave reaches A. In SR, the image of the I bar that > travels from A to C' back to D' and the image of the I bar that > travels from A to M back to D' is smaller than the image of the I bar > that travels from A to C' back to A and the image of the I bar that > travels from A to M back to A. This is all because in SR, you get to > choose the size of the I bar depending upon where the light wave winds > up. Since D' is in the train frame of reference the distance from A to > C' back to D' and the distance from A to M back to D' is over 1 light > year. Since A is in the embankment frame of reference the distance > from A to C' back to A and the distance from A to M back to A is 0.2 > or less light years. > > In AD, the images are identical because the light wave travels at 'c' > relative to the aether. Lightning strike at B/B' as in Einstein's train thought experiment. The Observer at M is 0.1 light years from B. Observer C' on the train is 1 light year from B'. The train and embankment are moving at 0.9 light years relative to one another. The light from the lightning strike at B/B' reach the Observer at M and the Observer at C' when the observers are as close as possible in three dimensional space. The lightning strike occurs behind the cross-cut of a steal I bar. In SR, since the light travels 0.1 light years from B to M and the light travels 1.0 light years from B' to C', the image of the I bar as seen by the Observer at M should be larger than the image of the I bar as seen by the Observer at C'. In AD, since the light wave traveled at 'c' relative to the aether and traveled the same distance to both observers, the images of the I bar as seen by the observers should be identical.
From: glird on 9 Nov 2009 12:19 On Oct 13, 6:36 pm, PD wrote: > > Do you know the definition of simultaneity for > two spatially separated events? I do. Do You? If so, please write it out for us. Note: As used in Einstein's tor, it means "If events occur at two spatially separated events, one at A and one at B, their "simultaneity" requires that two clocks - one at A and the other at B - that are set to mark rAB/c-v equal to rAB/c+v will mark them as happening at the same time. It is obvious that since the clocks are NOT synchronous (other than via Einstein's novel definition of the word) the two events were NOT simultaneous either. glird
From: glird on 9 Nov 2009 12:37 On Oct 17, 9:24 pm, YBM <ybm...(a)nooos.fr> wrote: > >>> On Oct 16, 12:06 am, mpc755 wrote: > ... > > Objects are the matter they contain. > > Talking to yourself again? > It's sad. You have a problem, it has nothing > to to with physics. > Isn't there any newsgroup about mental >illness where you could post? Try sigh.ybm
From: PD on 9 Nov 2009 13:00
On Nov 9, 11:19 am, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > On Oct 13, 6:36 pm, PD wrote: > > > > > Do you know the definition of simultaneity for > > two spatially separated events? > > I do. Do You? If so, please write it out for us. > > Note: As used in Einstein's tor, it means > "If events occur at two spatially separated events, one at A and one > at B, their "simultaneity" requires that two clocks - one at A and the > other at B - that are set to mark rAB/c-v equal to rAB/c+v will mark > them as happening at the same time. Here: If events occur at two spatially separated events, and a signal is sent with equal speed from each event to a single observer positioned midway between the two events, and the signals arrive at the observer at the same time, then this is what we mean when we say the two events are simultaneous. On the other hand, if events occur at two spatially separated events, and a signal is sent with equal speed from each event to a single observer positioned midway between the two events, and the signals arrive at the observer at different times, then this is what we mean when we say the two events are not simultaneous. This is in fact the definition that Einstein used. Notice that there are no synchronized clocks anywhere. > It is obvious that since the clocks are NOT synchronous (other than > via Einstein's novel definition of the word) the two events were NOT > simultaneous either. > > glird |