Simultaneity of Relativity
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From: mpc755 on 11 Nov 2009 00:14 On Nov 10, 1:14 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 10, 12:36 pm, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > > > On Nov 9, 6:17 pm, mpc755 wrote: > > > > The problem with simultaneity in Einstein's > > > train thought experiment [snip] > > > The real problem is that his gedanken experiment has little to do > > with how the equations of STR actually work. Therefore these > > interminable arguments, as to whether or not they are valid, are > > useless. > > > glird > > Einstein's train thought experiment is fundamental to people's > misunderstanding of how light behaves. It behaves as any other wave in > a medium does and that is it travels relative to the medium it is > propagating through. > > Einstein made the same mistake and that is why his train gedanken is > so important. Light waves to not travel from the emission point and > travel at 'c' from that point to the destination in the same frame of > reference. In Einstein's train thought experiment, where the marks are > made on the train and on the embankment are irrelevant as to how far > the light travels to the Observers at M and M'. > > If the light travels from the marks made at A and B to M, then the > aether is entrained and at rest relative to the embankment. If the > light travels from the marks made at A' and B' to M', then the aether > is entrained and at rest relative to the train. Since the embankment > frame of reference and the train frame of reference both occupy the > same space, and for this aether/space to be at rest for the train > frame of reference and for the embankment frame of reference is > physically impossible. > > This is what Einstein was trying to accomplish when he says the "idea > of motion may not be applied to the [aether]." He is trying to have it > both ways. Einstein needs the space/aether to be motionless relative > to both frames of reference or his whole Relativity of Simultaneity is > false. That is why he says: > > 'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein'http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Extras/Einstein_ether.html > > "Now comes the anxious question:- Why must I in the theory distinguish > the K system above all K' systems, which are physically equivalent to > it in all respects, by assuming that the ether is at rest relatively > to the K system? For the theoretician such an asymmetry in the > theoretical structure, with no corresponding asymmetry in the system > of experience, is intolerable. If we assume the ether to be at rest > relatively to K, but in motion relatively to K', the physical > equivalence of K and K' seems to me from the logical standpoint, not > indeed downright incorrect, but nevertheless unacceptable." > > It is an anxious question because it requires Einstein to finish with > "The idea of motion may not be applied to [aether]", which winds up > undermining Relativity of Simultaneity and undermining measuring to > the marks left by the lightning strikes and concluding anything about > the simultaneity of the lightning strikes. Without knowing how the > light travels from the lightning strikes to the Observers relative to > the aether, you cannot conclude anything about when the lightning > strike events occurred in either frame of reference. You can assume > the light travels from A and B to M and the light from A' and B' to > M', but since the idea of motion may not be applied to the aether/ > space, that requires the shared three dimensional space to be at rest > relative to train frame of reference and the embankment frame of > reference, which is impossible. > > What you can conclude is due to the lightning strike events > interaction with the aether and the fact the lightning strike event at > A/A' is a single event, there is one light wave associated with the > lightning strike and it is propagating outward at 'c' in all > directions relative to the aether in the present. There is a wall on the embankment. The lightning strike on the embankment occurs between the wall and the steel I bar. When the Observer C' on the train sticks out an arm and puts it in front of the Observer at M to take a picture of the I bar which is illuminated by the lightning strike, the light traveling from B' is blocked from reaching the outstretched arm of the by the wall on the embankment. The light from the lightning strike at B' does not reach the outstretched arm of the observer. If an image appears on the camera from the picture taken from the Observer at C's outstretched arm, then it must be of the light coming from the lightning strike at B. This means the image taken by the camera held at the Observer's chest and the image taken by the camera held in the outstretched arm will contain two different sized images of the I bar. If no image appears in the camera in the Observer at C's outstretched arm, what happened to the light waves that were traveling from B to M? Either way, Einstein's train thought experiment is incorrect. Either the images of the I bar are different sizes which means the light traveled from two different locations in three dimensional space and traveled two different distances to the Observer on the train, or no image appears in the picture taken from the outstretched arm of the Observer which means the light waves from B do not exist for the Observer at C'.
From: mpc755 on 11 Nov 2009 00:21 On Nov 10, 1:14 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 10, 12:36 pm, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > > > On Nov 9, 6:17 pm, mpc755 wrote: > > > > The problem with simultaneity in Einstein's > > > train thought experiment [snip] > > > The real problem is that his gedanken experiment has little to do > > with how the equations of STR actually work. Therefore these > > interminable arguments, as to whether or not they are valid, are > > useless. > > > glird > > Einstein's train thought experiment is fundamental to people's > misunderstanding of how light behaves. It behaves as any other wave in > a medium does and that is it travels relative to the medium it is > propagating through. > > Einstein made the same mistake and that is why his train gedanken is > so important. Light waves to not travel from the emission point and > travel at 'c' from that point to the destination in the same frame of > reference. In Einstein's train thought experiment, where the marks are > made on the train and on the embankment are irrelevant as to how far > the light travels to the Observers at M and M'. > > If the light travels from the marks made at A and B to M, then the > aether is entrained and at rest relative to the embankment. If the > light travels from the marks made at A' and B' to M', then the aether > is entrained and at rest relative to the train. Since the embankment > frame of reference and the train frame of reference both occupy the > same space, and for this aether/space to be at rest for the train > frame of reference and for the embankment frame of reference is > physically impossible. > > This is what Einstein was trying to accomplish when he says the "idea > of motion may not be applied to the [aether]." He is trying to have it > both ways. Einstein needs the space/aether to be motionless relative > to both frames of reference or his whole Relativity of Simultaneity is > false. That is why he says: > > 'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein'http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Extras/Einstein_ether.html > > "Now comes the anxious question:- Why must I in the theory distinguish > the K system above all K' systems, which are physically equivalent to > it in all respects, by assuming that the ether is at rest relatively > to the K system? For the theoretician such an asymmetry in the > theoretical structure, with no corresponding asymmetry in the system > of experience, is intolerable. If we assume the ether to be at rest > relatively to K, but in motion relatively to K', the physical > equivalence of K and K' seems to me from the logical standpoint, not > indeed downright incorrect, but nevertheless unacceptable." > > It is an anxious question because it requires Einstein to finish with > "The idea of motion may not be applied to [aether]", which winds up > undermining Relativity of Simultaneity and undermining measuring to > the marks left by the lightning strikes and concluding anything about > the simultaneity of the lightning strikes. Without knowing how the > light travels from the lightning strikes to the Observers relative to > the aether, you cannot conclude anything about when the lightning > strike events occurred in either frame of reference. You can assume > the light travels from A and B to M and the light from A' and B' to > M', but since the idea of motion may not be applied to the aether/ > space, that requires the shared three dimensional space to be at rest > relative to train frame of reference and the embankment frame of > reference, which is impossible. > > What you can conclude is due to the lightning strike events > interaction with the aether and the fact the lightning strike event at > A/A' is a single event, there is one light wave associated with the > lightning strike and it is propagating outward at 'c' in all > directions relative to the aether in the present. There is a wall on the embankment. The lightning strike on the embankment occurs between the wall and the steel I bar. When the Observer C' on the train sticks out an arm and puts it in front of the Observer at M to take a picture of the I bar which is illuminated by the lightning strike, the light traveling from B' is blocked from reaching the outstretched arm by the wall on the embankment. The light from the lightning strike at B' does not reach the outstretched arm of the observer. If an image appears on the camera from the picture taken from the Observer at C's outstretched arm, then it must be of the light coming from the lightning strike at B. This means the image taken by the camera held at the Observer's chest and the image taken by the camera held in the outstretched arm will contain two different sized images of the I bar. If no image appears in the camera in the Observer at C's outstretched arm, what happened to the light waves that were traveling from B to M? Either way, Einstein's train thought experiment is incorrect. Either the images of the I bar are different sizes which means the light traveled from two different locations in three dimensional space and traveled two different distances to the Observer on the train, or no image appears in the picture taken from the outstretched arm of the Observer which means the light waves from B do not exist for the Observer at C'.
From: mpc755 on 11 Nov 2009 18:05 On Nov 10, 8:44 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > What happens in SR when the Observer on the train pushes the Observer > on the embankment out of the way and sees the light from B? Since the > light from B has now traveled 0.1 light years to the Observer at C' on > the train, is the image of the I bar larger in the image seen by the > Observer at C'? > > In SR, if the Observer on the train keeps one camera in the train and > sticks the other camera in front of the Observer at M do the cameras > capture two different images of the I bar? Since the idea of motion > cannot be applied to the space/aether and since the train and > embankment share the same three dimensional space, what physically > changes which allows the image to be seen as having traveled two > different distance to the camera the Observer at C' holds on the train > and the camera the Observer at C' holds in an outstretched arm in > front of the Observer at M? Or, is the image the same size as captured > by any camera the Observer at C' holds? In SR, the light waves that > were traveling from B and about to reach the Observer at M change and > now have traveled from B'? > > In AD, the light from the lightning strike travels at 'c' relative to > the aether and if the Observer at C' and the Observer at M are as > close as possible to one another when the light from the lightning > strike at B/B' reaches them, then the light has traveled the same > distance to each of them because it is a single light wave traveling a > single path through the aether in the present. There is a problem in my thought experiment which I need to fix. At the time of the lightning strikes, C' is one light year from B/B' and M is 2/3rds of a light year from B/B'. C' is traveling at 1/2 the speed of light relative to the embankment. Here is the thought experiment setup: C'-----------------------------------B'--------> ----------M--------------------------B--------- When the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches the Observers at M/C': ----------C'-----------------------------------B'--------> ----------M--------------------------B--------- In SR, the light has traveled from B' to C' and the light has traveled from B to M. If at this point, the Observer at C' sticks an arm out and puts a camera directly in front of M, where have the light waves traveled from to the camera, and why? In AD, both Observers see the same image because there is a single lighting strike event at B/B' and C' and M are as close to each other as possible in three dimensional space when the light wave reaches them. The light wave is propagating outward at 'c' relative to the aether in the present.
From: mpc755 on 12 Nov 2009 13:52 On Nov 11, 6:05 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 10, 8:44 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > What happens in SR when the Observer on the train pushes the Observer > > on the embankment out of the way and sees the light from B? Since the > > light from B has now traveled 0.1 light years to the Observer at C' on > > the train, is the image of the I bar larger in the image seen by the > > Observer at C'? > > > In SR, if the Observer on the train keeps one camera in the train and > > sticks the other camera in front of the Observer at M do the cameras > > capture two different images of the I bar? Since the idea of motion > > cannot be applied to the space/aether and since the train and > > embankment share the same three dimensional space, what physically > > changes which allows the image to be seen as having traveled two > > different distance to the camera the Observer at C' holds on the train > > and the camera the Observer at C' holds in an outstretched arm in > > front of the Observer at M? Or, is the image the same size as captured > > by any camera the Observer at C' holds? In SR, the light waves that > > were traveling from B and about to reach the Observer at M change and > > now have traveled from B'? > > > In AD, the light from the lightning strike travels at 'c' relative to > > the aether and if the Observer at C' and the Observer at M are as > > close as possible to one another when the light from the lightning > > strike at B/B' reaches them, then the light has traveled the same > > distance to each of them because it is a single light wave traveling a > > single path through the aether in the present. > > There is a problem in my thought experiment which I need to fix. At > the time of the lightning strikes, C' is one light year from B/B' and > M is 2/3rds of a light year from B/B'. C' is traveling at 1/2 the > speed of light relative to the embankment. Here is the thought > experiment setup: > > C'-----------------------------------B'--------> > ----------M--------------------------B--------- > > When the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches the Observers > at M/C': > > ----------C'-----------------------------------B'--------> > ----------M--------------------------B--------- > > In SR, the light has traveled from B' to C' and the light has traveled > from B to M. If at this point, the Observer at C' sticks an arm out > and puts a camera directly in front of M, where have the light waves > traveled from to the camera, and why? > > In AD, both Observers see the same image because there is a single > lighting strike event at B/B' and C' and M are as close to each other > as possible in three dimensional space when the light wave reaches > them. The light wave is propagating outward at 'c' relative to the > aether in the present. In AD, since the light from the lightning strike at B/B' is a single event, the light wave propagates outward through three dimensional space at 'c' relative to the aether in the present to all Observers.
From: mpc755 on 13 Nov 2009 08:56
On Nov 12, 1:52 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 11, 6:05 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 10, 8:44 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > What happens in SR when the Observer on the train pushes the Observer > > > on the embankment out of the way and sees the light from B? Since the > > > light from B has now traveled 0.1 light years to the Observer at C' on > > > the train, is the image of the I bar larger in the image seen by the > > > Observer at C'? > > > > In SR, if the Observer on the train keeps one camera in the train and > > > sticks the other camera in front of the Observer at M do the cameras > > > capture two different images of the I bar? Since the idea of motion > > > cannot be applied to the space/aether and since the train and > > > embankment share the same three dimensional space, what physically > > > changes which allows the image to be seen as having traveled two > > > different distance to the camera the Observer at C' holds on the train > > > and the camera the Observer at C' holds in an outstretched arm in > > > front of the Observer at M? Or, is the image the same size as captured > > > by any camera the Observer at C' holds? In SR, the light waves that > > > were traveling from B and about to reach the Observer at M change and > > > now have traveled from B'? > > > > In AD, the light from the lightning strike travels at 'c' relative to > > > the aether and if the Observer at C' and the Observer at M are as > > > close as possible to one another when the light from the lightning > > > strike at B/B' reaches them, then the light has traveled the same > > > distance to each of them because it is a single light wave traveling a > > > single path through the aether in the present. > > > There is a problem in my thought experiment which I need to fix. At > > the time of the lightning strikes, C' is one light year from B/B' and > > M is 2/3rds of a light year from B/B'. C' is traveling at 1/2 the > > speed of light relative to the embankment. Here is the thought > > experiment setup: > > > C'-----------------------------------B'--------> > > ----------M--------------------------B--------- > > > When the light from the lightning strike at B/B' reaches the Observers > > at M/C': > > > ----------C'-----------------------------------B'--------> > > ----------M--------------------------B--------- > > > In SR, the light has traveled from B' to C' and the light has traveled > > from B to M. If at this point, the Observer at C' sticks an arm out > > and puts a camera directly in front of M, where have the light waves > > traveled from to the camera, and why? > > > In AD, both Observers see the same image because there is a single > > lighting strike event at B/B' and C' and M are as close to each other > > as possible in three dimensional space when the light wave reaches > > them. The light wave is propagating outward at 'c' relative to the > > aether in the present. > > In AD, since the light from the lightning strike at B/B' is a single > event, the light wave propagates outward through three dimensional > space at 'c' relative to the aether in the present to all Observers. You are walking across a bridge. On the other side of the bridge someone else is walking along at the same exact pace you are. You are both in the same frame of reference. The water moving under the bridge enters under your side of the bridge and exits out the other side of the bridge where the other walker is. You have an arm outstretched and drop a pebble off the side of the bridge. You keep your arm outstretched. The pebble hits the water and creates a ripple which travels away from where the pebble hit the water at the same speed in all directions relative to the water. You both continue to walk across the bridge as the ripple expands in the water as the point where the pebble entered the water also moves with the water. Eventually, the wave is directly under the person walking on the other side of the bridge. Where do you say the wave traveled from to the person on the other side of the bridge? Do you say the wave traveled a straight line from your outstretched hand to the other person, or do you say the wave rippled outward at the same speed in all directions relative to the water and the wave traveled from where the pebble was dropped into water and the point where the pebble was dropped into the water has moved with the water and traveled from that point to the person on the other side of the bridge? Do you insist the wave the pebble made in the water traveled a straight line from your outstretched hand to the other observer in your frame of reference or to you say the wave rippled outward in all directions at the same speed relative to the water? |