Smartmeter: Anyone knows how to get detailed info on them?
in [Design]
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From: Paul Hovnanian P.E. on 27 Apr 2010 16:30 Joerg wrote: > > Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: > > Joerg wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us > >> that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we > >> want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the > >> utility is stone-walling: > >> > >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 > >> > >> Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics > >> design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to > >> find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board > >> layouts of those things? > > > > Find out which makes and models they're using and post that info here > > and maybe on alt.engineering.electrical (and maybe > > misc.industry.utilities.electric if that group hasn't died of neglect > > yet). > > > > I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already > and they look similar to this one: > > http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of "SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that "SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand". The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically. Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day. But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy data. -- Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul(a)Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
From: Nico Coesel on 27 Apr 2010 16:23 Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Hello, > >Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us >that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we >want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the >utility is stone-walling: > >http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 > >Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics >design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to >find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board >layouts of those things? We're electronics engineers. Sure we can come up with a scheme to get electricity for free... -- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico(a)nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Thompson on 27 Apr 2010 16:25 On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:30:29 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul(a)Hovnanian.com> wrote: >Joerg wrote: >> >> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: >> > Joerg wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us >> >> that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we >> >> want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the >> >> utility is stone-walling: >> >> >> >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 >> >> >> >> Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics >> >> design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to >> >> find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board >> >> layouts of those things? >> > >> > Find out which makes and models they're using and post that info here >> > and maybe on alt.engineering.electrical (and maybe >> > misc.industry.utilities.electric if that group hasn't died of neglect >> > yet). >> > >> >> I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already >> and they look similar to this one: >> >> http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg > >I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of >"SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic >phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that >"SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand". > >The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk >pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically. >Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough >to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to >detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day. > >But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy >data. > I would expect data storage in NVRAM... don't you think? Otherwise the exposure to suits from angry customers would be overwhelming. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
From: Joerg on 27 Apr 2010 16:59 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:30:29 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > <Paul(a)Hovnanian.com> wrote: > >> Joerg wrote: >>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: >>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us >>>>> that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we >>>>> want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the >>>>> utility is stone-walling: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 >>>>> >>>>> Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics >>>>> design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to >>>>> find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board >>>>> layouts of those things? >>>> Find out which makes and models they're using and post that info here >>>> and maybe on alt.engineering.electrical (and maybe >>>> misc.industry.utilities.electric if that group hasn't died of neglect >>>> yet). >>>> >>> I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already >>> and they look similar to this one: >>> >>> http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg >> I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of >> "SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic >> phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that >> "SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand". >> >> The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk >> pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically. >> Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough >> to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to >> detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day. >> >> But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy >> data. >> > > I would expect data storage in NVRAM... don't you think? Otherwise > the exposure to suits from angry customers would be overwhelming. > It looks like the exposure is already sort of there. Even the state government got involved now and there was lots of egg in the faces on the news yesterday night. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: D Yuniskis on 27 Apr 2010 17:56
Joel Koltner wrote: > It's kinda surprising that, as a public utility company, they don't take > a more customer-friendly approach along the lines of, "we're going to > install the new Smart Meter side-by-side with the old mechanical analog > ones in 1,000 volunteer test homes to demonstrate they're accurate," and > put all the data on-line, log all the problems that are reported (and > their resolutions), etc. -- seems like they'd get a lot more public > support that way... Why would they have to do that? :> They've "proven" to the regulatory agencies that their meters "accurately" measure the product that they "sell" -- electricity. They are under no obligation to prove it to *you* (especially when doing so will be costly). Adding a second meter (series) to an existing home/business is a costly expense. OTOH, popping out the old meter and replacing it with a new "drop in replacement" is a 1 minute service interruption. First, figure out who *owns* the meter (customer or utility). That will go a long way in terms of telling you what you can *remotely* expect your "rights" to be. :> (e.g., the water department, natural gas, etc. all routinely replace meters without having to do a publicity campaign ahead of time). > This way it is just sounds like, "we're doing what we want to, and > you're all pretty much just wrong to question the accuracy, so just > leave us alone and keep paying those bills we send you!" Most of the designs I have seen for ToU meters are considerably more accurate than the mechanical beasts -- "on the bench". Time will tell how they fare in the long haul (meters are designed with a lifetime of 30+ years and DM+DL of ~$25). Some are little more than optointerrupters watching the disk spin. Others actually look at the line and integrate V*I (as well as recording peak e.g., for commercial users) I was looking forward to going on the ToU tariff, here, when it was announced (optional) as much of our electricity consumption is "off peak" (working overnight). But, they built the tariff in such a lopsided way that damn near *no one* can save money on it. So, what's the incentive to shift load? Wait for utility to need to build another power plant or more transmission lines *then* they'll have an incentive! As to Joerg's original question: you might poke around the EPRI web site (no idea if it is open to the public, though). |