Smartmeter: Anyone knows how to get detailed info on them?
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 27 Apr 2010 18:30 D Yuniskis wrote: > Joel Koltner wrote: >> It's kinda surprising that, as a public utility company, they don't >> take a more customer-friendly approach along the lines of, "we're >> going to install the new Smart Meter side-by-side with the old >> mechanical analog ones in 1,000 volunteer test homes to demonstrate >> they're accurate," and put all the data on-line, log all the problems >> that are reported (and their resolutions), etc. -- seems like they'd >> get a lot more public support that way... > > Why would they have to do that? :> They've "proven" to the > regulatory agencies that their meters "accurately" measure ... That remains to be seen and could become part of a state government investigation. Or hopefully will. > ... the > product that they "sell" -- electricity. They are under no > obligation to prove it to *you* (especially when doing so will > be costly). > In Bakersfield that obligation will now be determined by a court of law. Could get ugly. > Adding a second meter (series) to an existing home/business > is a costly expense. OTOH, popping out the old meter and > replacing it with a new "drop in replacement" is a 1 minute > service interruption. > > First, figure out who *owns* the meter (customer or utility). > That will go a long way in terms of telling you what you > can *remotely* expect your "rights" to be. :> > That is why I am against monopolies. They tend to lead to this sort of problem. > (e.g., the water department, natural gas, etc. all routinely > replace meters without having to do a publicity campaign > ahead of time). > Because theirs work, there's FOIA, and there's voting. >> This way it is just sounds like, "we're doing what we want to, and >> you're all pretty much just wrong to question the accuracy, so just >> leave us alone and keep paying those bills we send you!" > > Most of the designs I have seen for ToU meters are considerably > more accurate than the mechanical beasts -- "on the bench". > Time will tell how they fare in the long haul (meters are > designed with a lifetime of 30+ years and DM+DL of ~$25). > "On the bench" nearly everything works. This is a chunk of my bread and butter job, designs that worked nicely in the lab and then once in the field things hit the fan. > Some are little more than optointerrupters watching the disk > spin. Others actually look at the line and integrate V*I > (as well as recording peak e.g., for commercial users) > > I was looking forward to going on the ToU tariff, here, when > it was announced (optional) as much of our electricity > consumption is "off peak" (working overnight). But, they > built the tariff in such a lopsided way that damn near > *no one* can save money on it. So, what's the incentive > to shift load? Wait for utility to need to build another > power plant or more transmission lines *then* they'll have > an incentive! > Same here :-( > As to Joerg's original question: you might poke around the > EPRI web site (no idea if it is open to the public, though). I had tried that. Their search engine doesn't work well. If you key in smartmeter or "smart meter" there's a bazillion hits containing lots of document unrelated to the topic. Why can't IT folks learn from Digikey how to do it right? Although they did seem to have screwed up the order entry lately. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: D Yuniskis on 27 Apr 2010 18:40 Hi Paul, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: > Joerg wrote: >> >> I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already >> and they look similar to this one: >> >> http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg > > I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of > "SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic > phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that > "SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand". > > The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk > pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically. > Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough > to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to > detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day. Usually, they are more interested in you letting them *control* some of those loads (most significantly, the ACbrrr -- unless you are one of those unfortunate few with a 100% electric house in which case they also want the switch on your heat-pump or radiant heat). The advantage of electronic meters is primarily that of moving to ToU tariffs and getting consumers to shift their loads. Meter reading is a *minor* benefit (costs ~50c to read a meter "manually"). For years, the electric utilities were hoping to get a special tariff from Ma Bell so they could add instrumentation to the meter (and not have to store stuff in it, etc.) but Ma Bell never wanted to give them a free ride. Previous technologies to get at the end user were expensive (e.g., PLC works but *only* to the next high tension Xformer which then has to be bridged, etc.). Now, communications are cheap *and* you can store a lot *in* the meter *and* you don't need to use a lot of power doing so. This makes it considerably easier to come up with meters with *long* service lifes and low costs. > But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy > data. No, they pull the meter, recover what's "lost" inside and bill you as if nothing extraordinary had happened. But, it is expensive to do this as you have to send someone *to* the user (can't just tell the user, "When the guy from UPS shows up with a package from us, take the replacement meter out of the box, swap it for the one that is currently plugged into your house and return the old one to us in the box that the nice UPS man is holding...")
From: Tim Wescott on 27 Apr 2010 18:40 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:30:29 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > <Paul(a)Hovnanian.com> wrote: > >> Joerg wrote: >>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: >>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Many of you will soon be in the same boat. Our utility has informed us >>>>> that we and the whole town will get the dreaded smartmeters. Whether we >>>>> want that or not. Obviously they have serious issues and as usual the >>>>> utility is stone-walling: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14963541 >>>>> >>>>> Having seen all the grief caused by, ahem, sub-optimal electronics >>>>> design in cars I am not all that surprised. Does anyone know where to >>>>> find some serious data on this problem? Or maybe even schematics & board >>>>> layouts of those things? >>>> Find out which makes and models they're using and post that info here >>>> and maybe on alt.engineering.electrical (and maybe >>>> misc.industry.utilities.electric if that group hasn't died of neglect >>>> yet). >>>> >>> I'll have to wait until they reach our house. Others have them already >>> and they look similar to this one: >>> >>> http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg >> I can make out "Landis + Gyr" but no model numbers. A search of >> "SmartMeter" on their site only returns articles containing the generic >> phrase rather than a particular product line. I'd guess that >> "SmartMeter" is probably a PG&E "brand". >> >> The unit appears to be a fully electronic unit (no induction disk >> pickup). These measure the I and V and calculate the power numerically. >> Fancy things can be done with such meters, such as sampling fast enough >> to measure and characterize motor starting. Which can allow them to >> detect the number of times your fridge or a/c unit come on each day. >> >> But if the processor goes brain dead, there goes the accumulated energy >> data. >> > > I would expect data storage in NVRAM... don't you think? Otherwise > the exposure to suits from angry customers would be overwhelming. I can hear Ernestine now: "you can't talk to me that way, sir, I am with the _Power_ company!!" Tikki tikki tap (lights go out). -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com
From: Jim Thompson on 27 Apr 2010 19:01 On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:40:26 -0700, Tim Wescott <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: [snip] >> >> I would expect data storage in NVRAM... don't you think? Otherwise >> the exposure to suits from angry customers would be overwhelming. > >I can hear Ernestine now: "you can't talk to me that way, sir, I am with >the _Power_ company!!" Tikki tikki tap (lights go out). Don't you miss real roll-in-the-aisle humor like that? Her portrayal of a telephone operator is hilarious :-) All we get now-a-days are fairies denigrating smart women... if you get my gist :-( ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
From: D Yuniskis on 27 Apr 2010 19:20
Hi Joerg, Joerg wrote: > This is how ours look like: > http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SmartMeter.jpg Try: http://www.landisgyr.com/na/apps/products/data/pdf1/FOCUS_AL_ProductSheet_W.pdf |