Solar cell
in [Design]
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From: Don Lancaster on 26 Apr 2010 14:19 On 4/26/2010 10:03 AM, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote: > On 26/04/2010 05:16, Paul Keinanen wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 02:04:55 +0100, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax >> <dirk.bruere(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 24/04/2010 00:57, Joel Koltner wrote: >> >>>> Well clearly photovoltaics is incredibly useful as well, with plenty of >>>> immediate application. If someone figured out how to decimate the >>>> per-kW >>>> cost of PV panels, their growth rate would immediately jump up into the >>>> triple digits, I expect. >>> >>> Current prices are around $4/W >>> Nanosolar, for example, claims they can manufacture for $0.70/W >>> But since they are selling everything they can produce for a lot more >>> than that, why would they drop the price? >> >> Those prices are based on peak output. >> >> A fixed mounted panel average daily output is one quarter of the peak >> output during the best season. When calculated with the average power, >> those price should be multiplied by four, thus $16/W. During other >> seasons, the solar angle is less favorable, so calculated with the >> annual average output power, the price is even higher. >> >> Using a dual axis tracker the average annual output can be increased, >> but this also increases the costs. >> >> Compare this with the construction cost of $2-$3/W for nuclear and >> $1-$2/W for conventional power (especially gas turbines, but of >> course, the fuel cost is significant). >> >> The peak power price should drop with one order of magnitude, before >> the PV cells are competitive. > > The "magic" number that has always been quoted for cost competitive > solar electricity is $1 per Watt peak. Obviously for domestic users > competing with grid cost it's probably a lot more favourable eg around > $2 per peak Watt (and right now it is possible to buy such raw units at > that retail price). > The dollar per peak watt total true installed cost is the price at which the panels cease being a gasoline destroying net energy sink and become a totally pointless "paint it green" musical chairs scam. Such total installed cost would demand a panel cost in the fifty cents per peak watt region. For a useful net energy solution, panel costs would have to be at or below the quarter per peak watt class. A 1000 watt peak panel properly sited and oriented can typically produce 5 kilowatt hours per day of energy. Of that, only a fraction would be net renewable energy, perhaps 1 kilowatt hour. The remaining 4 would be conventional gasoline destroying energy in its amortization disguise. Domestic users competing with the grid would, of course, demand much LOWER panel pricing because no means of pv storage is known that is remotely as cheap or safe or simple or effective or reliable as synchronous inversion to the power grid. Such an offgrid market is highly unlikely to EVER become significant. People simply are not that dumb. <http://www.tinaja.com/etsamp1.asp> -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don(a)tinaja.com Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
From: Joel Koltner on 26 Apr 2010 14:40 "Don Lancaster" <don(a)tinaja.com> wrote in message news:83m3p7Ff9gU1(a)mid.individual.net... > <http://www.tinaja.com/etsamp1.asp> Don, do you still write columns like that for any of the remaining hobbyist magazines out there? Got a list of all the magazines you've written columns for anyway? :-) Weren't you even in Midnight Engineering for awhile? (Great name for a magazine -- I quit subscribing after I graduated from college, apparently it ceased publication not too long thereafter?) ---Joel
From: Michael on 26 Apr 2010 15:20 On Apr 23, 8:22 pm, Don Lancaster <d...(a)tinaja.com> wrote: > On 4/23/2010 11:43 AM, Michael wrote: > > > > > On Apr 17, 1:34 am, eryer<idkfaidkfaid...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, > >> I want to realize (for hobby) a battery charger using solar cell. I've > >> found this sensorhttp://www.clare.com/Products/SolarCell.htm > >> Its output voltage is high and can be used without step-up transformer > >> (like any typical solar cell). So, i can use > >> * a typical solar cell (with millivolt output voltage) and a step-up > >> transformer > >> * this sensor > >> For you, what is the best (performance) solution? > > > Can you build it cheaper than what it would cost to buy it? > > > $16, 1.5W(a)12V: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44768 > > > $12, adjustable 3/6/9/12V: > >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41427 > > > Michael > > You are confusing inverters with synchronous inverters. > There is a world of difference. > > -- > Many thanks, > > Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 > Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > rss:http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...(a)tinaja.com > > Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site athttp://www.tinaja.com He wanted a solar battery charger, not an inverter, nor a synchronous inverter. Michael
From: krw on 26 Apr 2010 18:10 On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:19:01 -0700, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >Hi Keith, > ><krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message >news:hte7t5divi6qa1pgjahb0tfka7v5c0q0jf(a)4ax.com... >> But they've had free access to every other semi breakthrough and still can't >> come within two orders of magnitude of interesting. > >I think it's more like "one order of magnitude of interesting," but I realize >that's pretty subjective. > >> It's not working. Diesel has been around as long as gasoline. > >Yeah, but up until the past couple of decades, the engines were a lot more >cantankerous than gasoline-powered engines. You still see glow-plug switches >on some trucks today, yet even the cheapest automobile hasn't had a manual >throttle in about 35 years now. Bizarre... Perhaps because truck drivers can be bothered to learn how to drive their vehicles. >> You mean VNET? > >Yep, that was it. Very slick for the time -- being able to e-mail anyone >within IBM and print to any printer anywhere. I was working out of Madison, >WI (we just did sales & customer installs/service -- no software/hardware >development), the 128kbps, I think it was (might have only been 64kbps) >leased-line we had went back to Rochester, Minnesota. I worked in P'ok (mainframe city) and we only had shared (three terminals per) 9,600bps lines. Printouts were delivered by truck twice a day.
From: Joel Koltner on 26 Apr 2010 18:32
<krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message news:6j3ct59lnb6vj2di6v68lnirs2g1rr66ll(a)4ax.com... > On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:19:01 -0700, "Joel Koltner" >>Yeah, but up until the past couple of decades, the engines were a lot more >>cantankerous than gasoline-powered engines. You still see glow-plug >>switches >>on some trucks today, yet even the cheapest automobile hasn't had a manual >>throttle in about 35 years now. Bizarre... > Perhaps because truck drivers can be bothered to learn how to drive their > vehicles. OK, but where's the payback? Look at how popular automatics are today -- the vast majority of people don't value the extra bit of control that manual transmissions, engine controls, etc. might given them. The fact that you can make a diesel today that the average consumer will find as easy to operate to an ICE (and for no more cost but with a bit better efficiency) is what will slowly drive their adoption. (Although these days the big thing is hybrids and all, so I fully expect that diesels won't make up any significant percentage of consumer vehicles in the foreseeable future.) > I worked in P'ok (mainframe city) and we only had shared (three terminals > per) > 9,600bps lines. Printouts were delivered by truck twice a day. We had pretty much every printer that was available, as one of the buildings was used to give demos to potential customers (although of course, at time, only a handful were actually networked -- the big copy-machine-sized ones!). I wrote up a few little toy utility programs for my manager under VM/CMS written in REXX... good times... ---Joel |