Station's clock with respect to the train
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From: John Murphy on 1 May 2010 00:13 On 1 May, 03:08, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > If the train watches the stations clock go slow then when does it have > the time to age more? > > Mitch Raemsch It never gets a chance to age comparatively, because by definition neither 'clock' - nor the train, nor the station knows what the other is doing, but it would not help if the train were to visit the station in some metrical sense, since that would entail either time gained by the train or lost by the station and nor would it work the other way around since it would seem to neither 'clock' that they had lost or gained. All the same, demons are thought to be able to travel at light speed, so could in principle produce a twin-dial clock, available to both station and train, although it is unclear how that could be of help to anyone other than demons themselves unless they could become an interstellar ISP. And if they got a useful role, they might get free from messing things up and win a few prizes here and there. -- Harbinger.
From: ben6993 on 1 May 2010 03:26 On May 1, 5:13 am, John Murphy <london.accommodation.homest...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > On 1 May, 03:08, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > If the train watches the stations clock go slow then when does it have > > the time to age more? > > > Mitch Raemsch > > It never gets a chance to age comparatively, because by definition > neither 'clock' - nor the train, nor the station knows what the other > is doing, but it would not help if the train were to visit the station > in some metrical sense, since that would entail either time gained by > the train or lost by the station and nor would it work the other way > around since it would seem to neither 'clock' that they had lost or > gained. > > All the same, demons are thought to be able to travel at light speed, > so could in principle produce a twin-dial clock, available to both > station and train, although it is unclear how that could be of help to > anyone other than demons themselves unless they could become an > interstellar ISP. And if they got a useful role, they might get free > from messing things up and win a few prizes here and there. > -- > Harbinger. Is light speed fast enough for the demons to be able to do that job? Wouldn't they need to travel instantaneously, without any time elapsing on their own clock or on anyone else's clock, to the station and back so they could adjust the auxiliary time dial? And they would need to return very frequently, to keep resetting the time on the auxiliary dial to the quasi-absolute time. If the demons were to pick a speeding clock, with respect to the station, for use as the quasi-absolute time, then the auxiliary dial would lag behind the station clock. If the auxiliary clock were to run very slow then we would need to display milliseconds or microseconds to see any useful passage of quasi-absolute time. Taking more and more decimal places of seconds to be useful for slower and slower clocks, at the limit of Planck time, assuming time is quantised, the auxiliary dial might in this limit not be able to show any passsage of time useful to us. That is because one unit of Planck time cannot be subdivided on the auxiliary dial. What use is a dial with only one tick every hundred years, say? Just as well the clocks will also have the local-time dial.
From: Androcles on 1 May 2010 03:45 "ben6993" <ben6993(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dbe2f5ca-e50d-4ce0-9ee3-54f2975d7aa6(a)d39g2000yqa.googlegroups.com... On May 1, 5:13 am, John Murphy <london.accommodation.homest...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > On 1 May, 03:08, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > If the train watches the stations clock go slow then when does it have > > the time to age more? > > > Mitch Raemsch > > It never gets a chance to age comparatively, because by definition > neither 'clock' - nor the train, nor the station knows what the other > is doing, but it would not help if the train were to visit the station > in some metrical sense, since that would entail either time gained by > the train or lost by the station and nor would it work the other way > around since it would seem to neither 'clock' that they had lost or > gained. > > All the same, demons are thought to be able to travel at light speed, > so could in principle produce a twin-dial clock, available to both > station and train, although it is unclear how that could be of help to > anyone other than demons themselves unless they could become an > interstellar ISP. And if they got a useful role, they might get free > from messing things up and win a few prizes here and there. > -- > Harbinger. Is light speed fast enough for the demons to be able to do that job? Wouldn't they need to travel instantaneously, without any time elapsing on their own clock or on anyone else's clock, to the station and back so they could adjust the auxiliary time dial? And they would need to return very frequently, to keep resetting the time on the auxiliary dial to the quasi-absolute time. If the demons were to pick a speeding clock, with respect to the station, for use as the quasi-absolute time, then the auxiliary dial would lag behind the station clock. If the auxiliary clock were to run very slow then we would need to display milliseconds or microseconds to see any useful passage of quasi-absolute time. Taking more and more decimal places of seconds to be useful for slower and slower clocks, at the limit of Planck time, assuming time is quantised, the auxiliary dial might in this limit not be able to show any passsage of time useful to us. That is because one unit of Planck time cannot be subdivided on the auxiliary dial. What use is a dial with only one tick every hundred years, say? Just as well the clocks will also have the local-time dial. =================================================== The demons need to read this: "It is essential to have time defined by means of stationary clocks in the stationary system, and the time now defined being appropriate to the stationary system we call it ``the time of the stationary system.'' -- Albert Idiot Einstein. "To any time of the stationary system K there then will correspond a definite position of the axes of the moving system, and from reasons of symmetry we are entitled to assume that the motion of k may be such that the axes of the moving system are at the time t (this ``t'' always denotes a time of the stationary system) parallel to the axes of the stationary system." -- Albert Even More Idiotic Einstein.
From: ben6993 on 1 May 2010 03:48 On May 1, 8:26 am, ben6993 <ben6...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On May 1, 5:13 am, John Murphy > > > > > > <london.accommodation.homest...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > > On 1 May, 03:08, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > If the train watches the stations clock go slow then when does it have > > > the time to age more? > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > It never gets a chance to age comparatively, because by definition > > neither 'clock' - nor the train, nor the station knows what the other > > is doing, but it would not help if the train were to visit the station > > in some metrical sense, since that would entail either time gained by > > the train or lost by the station and nor would it work the other way > > around since it would seem to neither 'clock' that they had lost or > > gained. > > > All the same, demons are thought to be able to travel at light speed, > > so could in principle produce a twin-dial clock, available to both > > station and train, although it is unclear how that could be of help to > > anyone other than demons themselves unless they could become an > > interstellar ISP. And if they got a useful role, they might get free > > from messing things up and win a few prizes here and there. > > -- > > Harbinger. > > Is light speed fast enough for the demons to be able to do that job? > Wouldn't they need to travel instantaneously, without any time > elapsing on their own clock or on anyone else's clock, to the station > and back so they could adjust the auxiliary time dial? And they would > need to return very frequently, to keep resetting the time on the > auxiliary dial to the quasi-absolute time. > > If the demons were to pick a speeding clock, with respect to the > station, for use as the quasi-absolute time, then the auxiliary dial > would lag behind the station clock. If the auxiliary clock were to > run very slow then we would need to display milliseconds or > microseconds to see any useful passage of quasi-absolute time. > > Taking more and more decimal places of seconds to be useful for slower > and slower clocks, at the limit of Planck time, assuming time is > quantised, the auxiliary dial might in this limit not be able to show > any passsage of time useful to us. That is because one unit of Planck > time cannot be subdivided on the auxiliary dial. What use is a dial > with only one tick every hundred years, say? Just as well the clocks > will also have the local-time dial.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Post script. Oops. It's much too early in the morning here to think straight ... not that it will be any better later on ... my logic about moving clock times is probably wrong. But let the demon instead take quasi-absolute clocks nearer and nearer to a black hole to get the effect of slower and slower ticking of time to be applied to the station clocks.
From: Androcles on 1 May 2010 04:16
"ben6993" <ben6993(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:29b72afc-f466-4e77-9642-cd5065827e05(a)n15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com... On May 1, 8:26 am, ben6993 <ben6...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On May 1, 5:13 am, John Murphy > > > > > > <london.accommodation.homest...(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > > On 1 May, 03:08, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > If the train watches the stations clock go slow then when does it have > > > the time to age more? > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > It never gets a chance to age comparatively, because by definition > > neither 'clock' - nor the train, nor the station knows what the other > > is doing, but it would not help if the train were to visit the station > > in some metrical sense, since that would entail either time gained by > > the train or lost by the station and nor would it work the other way > > around since it would seem to neither 'clock' that they had lost or > > gained. > > > All the same, demons are thought to be able to travel at light speed, > > so could in principle produce a twin-dial clock, available to both > > station and train, although it is unclear how that could be of help to > > anyone other than demons themselves unless they could become an > > interstellar ISP. And if they got a useful role, they might get free > > from messing things up and win a few prizes here and there. > > -- > > Harbinger. > > Is light speed fast enough for the demons to be able to do that job? > Wouldn't they need to travel instantaneously, without any time > elapsing on their own clock or on anyone else's clock, to the station > and back so they could adjust the auxiliary time dial? And they would > need to return very frequently, to keep resetting the time on the > auxiliary dial to the quasi-absolute time. > > If the demons were to pick a speeding clock, with respect to the > station, for use as the quasi-absolute time, then the auxiliary dial > would lag behind the station clock. If the auxiliary clock were to > run very slow then we would need to display milliseconds or > microseconds to see any useful passage of quasi-absolute time. > > Taking more and more decimal places of seconds to be useful for slower > and slower clocks, at the limit of Planck time, assuming time is > quantised, the auxiliary dial might in this limit not be able to show > any passsage of time useful to us. That is because one unit of Planck > time cannot be subdivided on the auxiliary dial. What use is a dial > with only one tick every hundred years, say? Just as well the clocks > will also have the local-time dial.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Post script. Oops. It's much too early in the morning here to think straight ... not that it will be any better later on ... my logic about moving clock times is probably wrong. But let the demon instead take quasi-absolute clocks nearer and nearer to a black hole to get the effect of slower and slower ticking of time to be applied to the station clocks. ============================================= Take the train to the black hole... you are right, it must be much too early in the morning there. |