Stuff Some Air Jacks Into The Pipe
in [Physics]
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From: tg on 17 Jun 2010 16:45 On Jun 17, 4:18 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:37:06 -0700, tg wrote: > > On Jun 17, 2:21 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:33:08 -0700, Uncle Al wrote: > >> > Bret Cahill wrote: > > >> >>http://www.asesystems.com/pneumatic-jacks.shtml?gclid=CLO- > > >> zdGRpqICFRk7gwodFnMjRg > > >> >> These rubberized Kevlar bags are small uninflated and can be packed > >> >> into a canister that protects the fabric from the ragged pipe > >> >> entrance. > >> > [snipc rap] > > >> > Hey stooopid, > > >> > 1) Halliburton cemented the wellhead with pigeon snot. If the > >> > blowout is capped, equilibrium pressure will go beyond 15,000 psig > >> > and blow the hardware like a champagne cork. > > >> > 2) The blowout is not central core, it is around the periphery > >> > of > >> > the drill string. Ya gotta plug the annulus, jackjass. BP managers > >> > ordered Trasocean engineers to omit placing centering rings to save > >> > time and money. Management is perfect in every way - perfect FUBAR, > >> > like you. > > >> > 3) "Inflate" Ha ha ha. Local sea floor pressure is ~2300 psia. > >> > Blowout equilibrium pressure is ~15,000 psig. /_\E = /_\(PV), 101.325 > >> > J/liter-atm. Yer talkin' a 20,000 psi gas compressor. Hey stooopid, > >> > how does gas act at 20,000 psi? Critical pressure for nitrogen is > >> > 500 psi. > > >> > Wanna plug the BP blowout? Put a refrigeration collar around the BOP > >> > (ammonia or sulfur dioxide mechanical refrigerant cycle) and > >> > progressively freeze the oil, inner wall to pipe center. Reversible > >> > at will. Thermally insulate the other side with benthic syntactic > >> > foam. Crystallized paraffins have been plugging oil wells nearly > >> > since Edwin L. Drake in 1859. > > >> > idiot > > >> As I have already _GUESSED_ (and for me that is all I can do), the > >> problem cannot be resolved by "capping" the pipe off in some way > >> because the pressure will blow the piping below the sea floor and the > >> oil will come out anyway. There are probably a zillion ways to "cap" > >> the well and no one is attempting it any more. All that mud stuff was > >> for show. Something to keep government and the public entertained. > > >> If this guess is correct then the only way to manage the problem is by > >> recovering the oil as it comes out of the pipe or as it seeps out from > >> around the damaged near surface. The dispersant was used to HIDE the > >> oil so that BP could limit its liabilities. Oil on the surface can be > >> skimmed, transported, and refined. This whole mess is an example of > >> why extraction of natural resources cannot be safely managed by profit > >> driven organizations. The incentives are totally wrong. > > >> So here we are: If and when "relief" wells can be drilled to intercept > >> the oil before it reaches the damaged (or weak) upper piping of the > >> well, then the flow of oil can be stopped. I am unclear as to how that > >> will work but whether the "relief" wells drop the pressure enough to > >> allow a cap that does not rupture the top portions of the well as it > >> sits, or whatever the relief wells are used to plug the pipe at a > >> deeper point where the surrounding rock is more supportive is somewhat > >> irrelevant. The objective seems to be to reduce the pressure at the top > >> of the current well and go from there. What I am not understanding at > >> this point is why the relief wells need to be so deep. (so deep is > >> implied by the time to drill them). If four or five new pipes are added > >> a few hundred feet below the top and the oil flows into tankers then > >> this would dramatically reduce the pressure and allow the damaged well > >> to be sealed. > > >> It may be that BP has poked a hole in a reservoir of such pressure that > >> all the blowout prevention and cement would not have mattered. > > >> -- > > > For more info,http://theoildrum.com/is very good. People who appear to > > be experts think there is a real but low-probability chance that there > > could be a catastrophic failure of the well/casing system if too much > > pressure develops. > > > As for relieving the pressure---the pressure is what it is. There is > > (again from experts) a not-improbable chance that the increase in flow > > rate is due to sand abrasion wearing away existing constrictions in the > > Blowout (Not-) Preventer, with lesser such effects in the well itself. > > IOW, there's more than enough pressure+oil down there to keep pushing > > oil out for a very long time, and opening things up isn't going to make > > much difference at all. > > Bullshit. If I have ONE channel in which oil is flowing then that one > channel is a choke point. If I make 5 channels above the current "choke > point" then the five channels will each deliver one 5th of the choke > point flow. More importantly, I can close off one of the five without > blowing a hole in the "choke". > If you're going to be offensive, at least make sense. I thought you wanted to reduce pressure, but now you are talking about more outlets *past* what you call the choke point. How can that make any difference? I think that what you mean is to make connections *below* the Blowout Protector (which is almost certainly the most constricting part of the system at this point). I suggest you go to theoildrum or BP site or I believe DOE or some other government site that has drawings of the well. You will see various reasons why that would not work. What you are talking about *in principle* is the last, last resort, which is to drill multiple wells into the reservoir so it can be drained down faster. But there's a reason BP took so many chances on what their engineer called a "nightmare well" or something like that. Again, there's lots of oil+pressure down there, and it would take years. > > As for going deep with the relief wells---remember that the relief well > > has to suppress flow in itself while feeding the drilling mud, since we > > don't need to lose another rig and some more workers. It is apparently > > a tricky balancing act which isn't guaranteed to work the first (few) > > time(s). There is also a low but real risk of catastrophic failure in > > the original well or the rock formation during the operation. > > The drilling mud must have enough weight behind it to suppress the oil > flow and that is why the hole must be so deep? > Yes, among other things. The relief well can be blown out just like the first if the column isn't long enough. -tg > > >> "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" > >> --http://GreaterVoice.org/60 > > -- > "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" --http://GreaterVoice.org/60
From: Michael Coburn on 17 Jun 2010 18:05 On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:45:59 -0700, tg wrote: >> [quoted text muted] > If you're going to be offensive, at least make sense. I thought you > wanted to reduce pressure, but now you are talking about more outlets > *past* what you call the choke point. How can that make any difference? I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss the issue. There is a reservoir of oil and gas at the BOTTOM of a long length of pipe that leads to the TOP of the well. That entire pipe is a "choke point" given a constant pressure from below then the flow through the pipe is determined by the size of the pipe. The pressure in the pipe diminishes somewhat at the top of the pipe in relation to what it was at the bottom, but that is not of importance here. The pressure _PAST_ the top of the pie is significantly less than the pressure in the @#$%& pipe because there is no "choke" on the flow. SO: If one or more pipes are added to intersect current single pipe (all of which is a choke) at some point in the top one forth of the entire pipe then the pressure in any one of the pipes ABOVE the lower section of the pipe will now share the flow just like venting the oil out the top of the current pipe. If 4 new pipes are added than each pipe will share one 5th the pressure of the LOWER piping assuming that the oil flow is only restricted by the pipes. If ONE of the pipes is sealed then the other 4 pipes will have one 4th the pressure of the original pipe. These approximations are wrong I am sure. Yet the pressure in MORE pipes will be less per pipe so long as there is a flow through the pipes. No flow and the choke makes no difference and the pressure returns. > I think that what you mean is to make connections *below* the Blowout > Protector (which is almost certainly the most constricting part of the > system at this point). I suggest you go to theoildrum or BP site or I > believe DOE or some other government site that has drawings of the well. > You will see various reasons why that would not work. > > What you are talking about *in principle* is the last, last resort, > which is to drill multiple wells into the reservoir so it can be drained > down faster. But there's a reason BP took so many chances on what their > engineer called a "nightmare well" or something like that. Again, > there's lots of oil+pressure down there, and it would take years. That is NOT what I was talking about. >> [quoted text muted] > Yes, among other things. The relief well can be blown out just like the > first if the column isn't long enough. > > -tg > > > >> [quoted text muted] -- "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" -- http://GreaterVoice.org/60
From: tg on 17 Jun 2010 18:14 On Jun 17, 6:05 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:45:59 -0700, tg wrote: > >> [quoted text muted] > > If you're going to be offensive, at least make sense. I thought you > > wanted to reduce pressure, but now you are talking about more outlets > > *past* what you call the choke point. How can that make any difference? > > I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss the issue. I don't care about being friends, but you are clearly not up to discussing either the physics or the practical engineering that is involved. > There is > a reservoir of oil and gas at the BOTTOM of a long length of pipe that > leads to the TOP of the well. That entire pipe is a "choke point" given > a constant pressure from below then the flow through the pipe is > determined by the size of the pipe. The pressure in the pipe diminishes > somewhat at the top of the pipe in relation to what it was at the bottom, > but that is not of importance here. The pressure _PAST_ the top of the > pie is significantly less than the pressure in the @#$%& pipe because > there is no "choke" on the flow. > > SO: > > If one or more pipes are added to intersect current single pipe (all of > which is a choke) at some point in the top one forth of the entire pipe > then the pressure in any one of the pipes ABOVE the lower section of the > pipe will now share the flow just like venting the oil out the top of the > current pipe. If 4 new pipes are added than each pipe will share one 5th > the pressure of the LOWER piping assuming that the oil flow is only > restricted by the pipes. If ONE of the pipes is sealed then the other 4 > pipes will have one 4th the pressure of the original pipe. > > These approximations are wrong I am sure. Yet the pressure in MORE pipes > will be less per pipe so long as there is a flow through the pipes. No > flow and the choke makes no difference and the pressure returns. > > > I think that what you mean is to make connections *below* the Blowout > > Protector (which is almost certainly the most constricting part of the > > system at this point). I suggest you go to theoildrum or BP site or I > > believe DOE or some other government site that has drawings of the well.. > > You will see various reasons why that would not work. > > > What you are talking about *in principle* is the last, last resort, > > which is to drill multiple wells into the reservoir so it can be drained > > down faster. But there's a reason BP took so many chances on what their > > engineer called a "nightmare well" or something like that. Again, > > there's lots of oil+pressure down there, and it would take years. > > That is NOT what I was talking about. > Yes it is. If not, you haven't a clue about the physics. Talk to your pale and portly counterpart; that way you can hide your poor reasoning the way he does. -tg > >> [quoted text muted] > > Yes, among other things. The relief well can be blown out just like the > > first if the column isn't long enough. > > > -tg > > >> [quoted text muted] > > -- > "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" --http://GreaterVoice.org/60
From: Michael Coburn on 17 Jun 2010 18:30 On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:14:54 -0700, tg wrote: > On Jun 17, 6:05 pm, Michael Coburn <mik...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:45:59 -0700, tg wrote: >> >> [quoted text muted] >> > If you're going to be offensive, at least make sense. I thought you >> > wanted to reduce pressure, but now you are talking about more outlets >> > *past* what you call the choke point. How can that make any >> > difference? >> >> I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss the issue. > > I don't care about being friends, but you are clearly not up to > discussing either the physics or the practical engineering that is > involved. You are not going to change reality with a slide rule, pal. >> There is >> a reservoir of oil and gas at the BOTTOM of a long length of pipe that >> leads to the TOP of the well. That entire pipe is a "choke point" >> given a constant pressure from below then the flow through the pipe is >> determined by the size of the pipe. The pressure in the pipe >> diminishes somewhat at the top of the pipe in relation to what it was >> at the bottom, but that is not of importance here. The pressure _PAST_ >> the top of the pie is significantly less than the pressure in the @#$%& >> pipe because there is no "choke" on the flow. >> >> SO: >> >> If one or more pipes are added to intersect current single pipe (all of >> which is a choke) at some point in the top one forth of the entire pipe >> then the pressure in any one of the pipes ABOVE the lower section of >> the pipe will now share the flow just like venting the oil out the top >> of the current pipe. If 4 new pipes are added than each pipe will >> share one 5th the pressure of the LOWER piping assuming that the oil >> flow is only restricted by the pipes. If ONE of the pipes is sealed >> then the other 4 pipes will have one 4th the pressure of the original >> pipe. >> >> These approximations are wrong I am sure. Yet the pressure in MORE >> pipes will be less per pipe so long as there is a flow through the >> pipes. No flow and the choke makes no difference and the pressure >> returns. >> >> > I think that what you mean is to make connections *below* the Blowout >> > Protector (which is almost certainly the most constricting part of >> > the system at this point). I suggest you go to theoildrum or BP site >> > or I believe DOE or some other government site that has drawings of >> > the well. You will see various reasons why that would not work. >> >> > What you are talking about *in principle* is the last, last resort, >> > which is to drill multiple wells into the reservoir so it can be >> > drained down faster. But there's a reason BP took so many chances on >> > what their engineer called a "nightmare well" or something like that. >> > Again, there's lots of oil+pressure down there, and it would take >> > years. >> >> That is NOT what I was talking about. >> >> > Yes it is. If not, you haven't a clue about the physics. Talk to your > pale and portly counterpart; that way you can hide your poor reasoning > the way he does. We be done. > >> >> [quoted text muted] >> > Yes, among other things. The relief well can be blown out just like >> > the first if the column isn't long enough. >> >> > -tg >> >> >> [quoted text muted] >> >> -- >> "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" >> --http://GreaterVoice.org/60 -- "Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" -- http://GreaterVoice.org/60
From: Androcles on 17 Jun 2010 18:43
"Michael Coburn" <mikcob(a)verizon.net> wrote in message news:hve67m3299j(a)news3.newsguy.com... | I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss the issue. There is | a reservoir of oil and gas at the BOTTOM of a long length of pipe that | leads to the TOP of the well. That entire pipe is a "choke point" given | a constant pressure from below then the flow through the pipe is | determined by the size of the pipe. The pressure in the pipe diminishes | somewhat at the top of the pipe in relation to what it was at the bottom, | but that is not of importance here. The pressure _PAST_ the top of the | pie is significantly less than the pressure in the @#$%& pipe because | there is no "choke" on the flow. | http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BOP.JPG The gaskets have failed. There is still some restriction in the BOP or the lower gasket would not show a plume. The BOP is rated a 15,000 psi. The water pressure is 5000 ft head, 30 ft head of water = 1 bar = 15 psi. 5000 ft head = 167 bar. 167 * 15 psi = 15,000 psi. |